Tudor at Bosworth

Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-28 07:07:32
Nance Crawford
I have spent the past four days combing the net (even got a couple of library books) trying to find some references to the men Richmond had around him at Bosworth. I'm so tired of hearing about the Stanleys, and we all know about Brandon - but who was actually near him when Richard came dashing toward him? It's a black hole. de Vere was obviously in the thick of (or at the head of) his troups, and Jasper, I'm told, may have stayed in Shrewsbury (that seems odd) - but you'd think there'd be some record of who was actually in Richmond's bodyguard - somebody must have bragged about it, and he certainly rewarded a bunch of folks. help?

Re: Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-29 20:02:03
justcarol67



Nance wrote:

"I have spent the past four days combing the net (even got a couple of library books) trying to find some references to the men Richmond had around him at Bosworth. I'm so tired of hearing about the Stanleys, and we all know about Brandon - but who was actually near him when Richard came dashing toward him? It's a black hole. de Vere was obviously in the thick of (or at the head of) his troups, and Jasper, I'm told, may have stayed in Shrewsbury (that seems odd) - but you'd think there'd be some record of who was actually in Richmond's bodyguard - somebody must have bragged about it, and he certainly rewarded a bunch of folks. help?"

Carol responds:

Don't forget the huge Sir John Cheney, whom Richard unhorsed, and the traitorous Welshman, Rhys ap Thomas, who promised to block Henry's path and instead joined him.

Carol

Re: Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-29 21:44:03
Carol - This is the part I don't understand about medieval warfare - would the leader of a contingent of men stay with his own men, or ride with the nominal Leader - and then would he stay with the Leader until the battle was joined, or go out and lead his men?

We have a good idea of the order of battle but, as far as I've seen, no exact placements - the reason nobody knew about Fenn Field until very recently - So, the primary thing that concerns me is, where were de Vere and ap Thomas? Did they leave their lieutenants to stay with the king, or stay with him, themselves?

We know there were cannon, and from what little I've retained from my reading, form of battle doesn't appear change much until ordinance becomes more effective. They were still wearing armour during the Civil War, so would guarding Charles I have been that much different?

N

Re: Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-29 22:07:23
Nicholas Brown
Hi,

According to Debra Bayani, John Stow (writing about 100 years later) wrote that Henry 'assigned Sir John Savage and hee with aide of the Lord Stanley accompanied with the Earle of Pembroke Having a good company of horsemen and a small number of footmen.' In addition to the support of the Earl of Oxford, Cheney, and Rhys ap Thomas, she says that Gilbert Talbot was to the right of Henry with John Savage on the left, with William Brandon as following as standard bearer.

Another biographer of Jasper, Sara Elin Roberts also believes that Jasper was present at Bosworth citing Henry's lack of military experience and Jasper, who had been a veteran of many battles would have been unlikely to not help, especially given his constant loyalty to his nephew.

Where is it said that Jasper stayed at Shrewsbury? Was it something to do with the incident with Mitton?

Nico

On Sunday, 29 April 2018, 21:44:08 GMT+1, rwn7lcrtmx5ik2pn2z65srj3dvc7rbcbkgixtfmj@... [] <> wrote:

Carol - This is the part I don't understand about medieval warfare - would the leader of a contingent of men stay with his own men, or ride with the nominal Leader - and then would he stay with the Leader until the battle was joined, or go out and lead his men?

We have a good idea of the order of battle but, as far as I've seen, no exact placements - the reason nobody knew about Fenn Field until very recently - So, the primary thing that concerns me is, where were de Vere and ap Thomas? Did they leave their lieutenants to stay with the king, or stay with him, themselves?

We know there were cannon, and from what little I've retained from my reading, form of battle doesn't appear change much until ordinance becomes more effective. They were still wearing armour during the Civil War, so would guarding Charles I have been that much different?

N

Re: Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-29 23:15:47
Hilary Jones
Nance, I tried to reply to you but for some reason my reply didn't get through
It was this
Hello Nance, I'm sure our military historians know more than me, but there's always this claim that Rhys ap Thomas was the one who struck down Richard. If I had to guess I would say it was a collection of Welsh and foreign mercenaries, whilst Oxford, as you say, led the real fighting and HT cowered at the back.
Why I think this is that there was clearly no leader there to restrain them when they killed Richard. To kill an anointed king was a mortal sin and something that HT and MB would have to live with forever. People like Bolingbroke and Edward could probably live with the knowledge (although the killing was done furtively) but not someone like MB. I would have thought the aim would have been not to kill, but to capture Richard and get him to agree to a number of concessions - like Warwick had done with Edward in 1470. H
HT wasn't the King, Richard was, so would guarding him be that important. Sorry H
On Sunday, 29 April 2018, 21:44:08 BST, rwn7lcrtmx5ik2pn2z65srj3dvc7rbcbkgixtfmj@... [] <> wrote:

Carol - This is the part I don't understand about medieval warfare - would the leader of a contingent of men stay with his own men, or ride with the nominal Leader - and then would he stay with the Leader until the battle was joined, or go out and lead his men?

We have a good idea of the order of battle but, as far as I've seen, no exact placements - the reason nobody knew about Fenn Field until very recently - So, the primary thing that concerns me is, where were de Vere and ap Thomas? Did they leave their lieutenants to stay with the king, or stay with him, themselves?

We know there were cannon, and from what little I've retained from my reading, form of battle doesn't appear change much until ordinance becomes more effective. They were still wearing armour during the Civil War, so would guarding Charles I have been that much different?

N

Re: Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-30 12:08:05
mariewalsh2003

Medieval armies were divided into three wings, which engaged their opposite numbers at different stages of the battle, and their designated leaders really did lead them. So Oxford's wing engaged Norfolk's wing at the start of the battle, and after the defeat of Oxford's wing it was time for the two centres, led by Richard and Henry, to engage each other.

The leaders' bodyguards would have consisted of their own most trusted knights (in the case of a king, it would have been the knights and esquires of the Body). We know Sir John Cheyney and Sir William Brandon were right by Tudor because Richard unhorsed one and killed the other. Rhys ap Thomas must also have been amongst the bodyguard if the reports of his role in Richard's death are to be believed. A report from the French mercenaries suggests Henry also used them in a more general way as a shield.

Re: Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-30 14:37:44
Nance Crawford
Thanks, Nico! ----- Original Message ----- From: Nicholas Brown nico11238@... [] <> Reply-To: <> To: <> Sent: 4/29/2018 2:07:16 PM Subject: Re: Re: Tudor at Bosworth

Hi,

According to Debra Bayani, John Stow (writing about 100 years later) wrote that Henry 'assigned Sir John Savage and hee with aide of the Lord Stanley accompanied with the Earle of Pembroke Having a good company of horsemen and a small number of footmen.' In addition to the support of the Earl of Oxford, Cheney, and Rhys ap Thomas, she says that Gilbert Talbot was to the right of Henry with John Savage on the left, with William Brandon as following as standard bearer.

Another biographer of Jasper, Sara Elin Roberts also believes that Jasper was present at Bosworth citing Henry's lack of military experience and Jasper, who had been a veteran of many battles would have been unlikely to not help, especially given his constant loyalty to his nephew.

Where is it said that Jasper stayed at Shrewsbury? Was it something to do with the incident with Mitton?

Nico

On Sunday, 29 April 2018, 21:44:08 GMT+1, rwn7lcrtmx5ik2pn2z65srj3dvc7rbcbkgixtfmj@... [] <> wrote:

Carol - This is the part I don't understand about medieval warfare - would the leader of a contingent of men stay with his own men, or ride with the nominal Leader - and then would he stay with the Leader until the battle was joined, or go out and lead his men?

We have a good idea of the order of battle but, as far as I've seen, no exact placements - the reason nobody knew about Fenn Field until very recently - So, the primary thing that concerns me is, where were de Vere and ap Thomas? Did they leave their lieutenants to stay with the king, or stay with him, themselves?

We know there were cannon, and from what little I've retained from my reading, form of battle doesn't appear change much until ordinance becomes more effective. They were still wearing armour during the Civil War, so would guarding Charles I have been that much different?

N

Re: Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-30 14:59:44
Nance Crawford
Thanks, Hillary. Didn't stop to consider the mortal sin aspect. Considering the little even-handed information I've been able to glean about HT includes the fact that he was, apparently, devout in his unique way, the "usurper" may have begun right there, as denial - to be reinforced when, within the week, it was realized that the boys were nowhere to be found. Titulus Regius be damned, their removal was a godsend, for, at best, had they been present, HT would have been reduced to their prospecive brother-in-law. (There's a plot for an alternative history novel!) Talking himself into believing he was not a regicide may have been the only way to live with it (well, in addition to the fact that he got the girl and all the money he could get his hands on). ----- Original Message ----- From: Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> Reply-To: <> To: <> Sent: 4/29/2018 1:55:32 PM Subject: Re: Re: Tudor at Bosworth

Nance, I tried to reply to you but for some reason my reply didn't get through
It was this
Hello Nance, I'm sure our military historians know more than me, but there's always this claim that Rhys ap Thomas was the one who struck down Richard. If I had to guess I would say it was a collection of Welsh and foreign mercenaries, whilst Oxford, as you say, led the real fighting and HT cowered at the back.
Why I think this is that there was clearly no leader there to restrain them when they killed Richard. To kill an anointed king was a mortal sin and something that HT and MB would have to live with forever. People like Bolingbroke and Edward could probably live with the knowledge (although the killing was done furtively) but not someone like MB. I would have thought the aim would have been not to kill, but to capture Richard and get him to agree to a number of concessions - like Warwick had done with Edward in 1470. H
HT wasn't the King, Richard was, so would guarding him be that important. Sorry H
On Sunday, 29 April 2018, 21:44:08 BST, rwn7lcrtmx5ik2pn2z65srj3dvc7rbcbkgixtfmj@... [] <> wrote:

Carol - This is the part I don't understand about medieval warfare - would the leader of a contingent of men stay with his own men, or ride with the nominal Leader - and then would he stay with the Leader until the battle was joined, or go out and lead his men?

We have a good idea of the order of battle but, as far as I've seen, no exact placements - the reason nobody knew about Fenn Field until very recently - So, the primary thing that concerns me is, where were de Vere and ap Thomas? Did they leave their lieutenants to stay with the king, or stay with him, themselves?

We know there were cannon, and from what little I've retained from my reading, form of battle doesn't appear change much until ordinance becomes more effective. They were still wearing armour during the Civil War, so would guarding Charles I have been that much different?

N

Re: Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-30 15:03:34
Nance Crawford
Thanks, Marie. Didn't know about the French mercenary report - who was it sent to? ----- Original Message ----- From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> Reply-To: <> To: <> Sent: 4/30/2018 4:08:01 AM Subject: Re: Re: Tudor at Bosworth

Medieval armies were divided into three wings, which engaged their opposite numbers at different stages of the battle, and their designated leaders really did lead them. So Oxford's wing engaged Norfolk's wing at the start of the battle, and after the defeat of Oxford's wing it was time for the two centres, led by Richard and Henry, to engage each other.

The leaders' bodyguards would have consisted of their own most trusted knights (in the case of a king, it would have been the knights and esquires of the Body). We know Sir John Cheyney and Sir William Brandon were right by Tudor because Richard unhorsed one and killed the other. Rhys ap Thomas must also have been amongst the bodyguard if the reports of his role in Richard's death are to be believed. A report from the French mercenaries suggests Henry also used them in a more general way as a shield.

Re: Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-30 15:10:21
Paul Trevor Bale

The French pikemen are what some have recently said were the reason Richard couldn't get to Tudor as they had him surrounded by a phalanx of pikes. The French pikemen also caused havoc on Norfolks wing. They fought with a style completely new to the English, unlooked for and unexpected.Paul

On 30 Apr 2018, at 16:02, 'Nance Crawford' Nance@... [] <> wrote:

Thanks, Marie. Didn't know about the French mercenary report - who was it sent to?

----- Original Message ----- From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> Reply-To: <> To: <> Sent: 4/30/2018 4:08:01 AM Subject: Re: Re: Tudor at Bosworth

Medieval armies were divided into three wings, which engaged their opposite numbers at different stages of the battle, and their designated leaders really did lead them. So Oxford's wing engaged Norfolk's wing at the start of the battle, and after the defeat of Oxford's wing it was time for the two centres, led by Richard and Henry, to engage each other.

The leaders' bodyguards would have consisted of their own most trusted knights (in the case of a king, it would have been the knights and esquires of the Body). We know Sir John Cheyney and Sir William Brandon were right by Tudor because Richard unhorsed one and killed the other. Rhys ap Thomas must also have been amongst the bodyguard if the reports of his role in Richard's death are to be believed. A report from the French mercenaries suggests Henry also used them in a more general way as a shield.




Re: Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-30 15:16:52
Nance Crawford
Sorry, Nico - Meant to add that the Shrewsbury idea was a response on one of the Ricardian Facebook pages I belong to and was an admitted guess. I mentioned it because it seemed odd to me that Jasper would leave HT just as he was going to need the one person he absolutely could trust - especially on the battlefield. I should think that Jasper would have stayed pretty close to him there, too. ----- Original Message ----- From: Nicholas Brown nico11238@... [] <> Reply-To: <> To: <> Sent: 4/29/2018 2:07:16 PM Subject: Re: Re: Tudor at Bosworth

Hi,

According to Debra Bayani, John Stow (writing about 100 years later) wrote that Henry 'assigned Sir John Savage and hee with aide of the Lord Stanley accompanied with the Earle of Pembroke Having a good company of horsemen and a small number of footmen.' In addition to the support of the Earl of Oxford, Cheney, and Rhys ap Thomas, she says that Gilbert Talbot was to the right of Henry with John Savage on the left, with William Brandon as following as standard bearer.

Another biographer of Jasper, Sara Elin Roberts also believes that Jasper was present at Bosworth citing Henry's lack of military experience and Jasper, who had been a veteran of many battles would have been unlikely to not help, especially given his constant loyalty to his nephew.

Where is it said that Jasper stayed at Shrewsbury? Was it something to do with the incident with Mitton?

Nico

On Sunday, 29 April 2018, 21:44:08 GMT+1, rwn7lcrtmx5ik2pn2z65srj3dvc7rbcbkgixtfmj@... [] <> wrote:

Carol - This is the part I don't understand about medieval warfare - would the leader of a contingent of men stay with his own men, or ride with the nominal Leader - and then would he stay with the Leader until the battle was joined, or go out and lead his men?

We have a good idea of the order of battle but, as far as I've seen, no exact placements - the reason nobody knew about Fenn Field until very recently - So, the primary thing that concerns me is, where were de Vere and ap Thomas? Did they leave their lieutenants to stay with the king, or stay with him, themselves?

We know there were cannon, and from what little I've retained from my reading, form of battle doesn't appear change much until ordinance becomes more effective. They were still wearing armour during the Civil War, so would guarding Charles I have been that much different?

N

Re: Tudor at Bosworth

2018-04-30 15:44:53
Nance Crawford
Thanks, Paul - now I'm wondering where to find a picture of French pikemen (without a caption in French, if possible!). ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Trevor Bale bale475@... [] <> Reply-To: <> To: khafara@... [] <> Sent: 4/30/2018 7:10:15 AM Subject: Re: Re: Tudor at Bosworth


The French pikemen are what some have recently said were the reason Richard couldn't get to Tudor as they had him surrounded by a phalanx of pikes. The French pikemen also caused havoc on Norfolks wing. They fought with a style completely new to the English, unlooked for and unexpected. Paul

On 30 Apr 2018, at 16:02, 'Nance Crawford' Nance@... [] <> wrote:

Thanks, Marie. Didn't know about the French mercenary report - who was it sent to?

----- Original Message ----- From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> Reply-To: <> To: <> Sent: 4/30/2018 4:08:01 AM Subject: Re: Re: Tudor at Bosworth

Medieval armies were divided into three wings, which engaged their opposite numbers at different stages of the battle, and their designated leaders really did lead them. So Oxford's wing engaged Norfolk's wing at the start of the battle, and after the defeat of Oxford's wing it was time for the two centres, led by Richard and Henry, to engage each other.

The leaders' bodyguards would have consisted of their own most trusted knights (in the case of a king, it would have been the knights and esquires of the Body). We know Sir John Cheyney and Sir William Brandon were right by Tudor because Richard unhorsed one and killed the other. Rhys ap Thomas must also have been amongst the bodyguard if the reports of his role in Richard's death are to be believed. A report from the French mercenaries suggests Henry also used them in a more general way as a shield.




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