Richard III Research and Discussion Archive

Carol - This is the part I don't understand about medieval warfare - would the leader of a contingent of men stay with his own men, or ride with the nominal Leader - and then would he stay with the Leader until the battle was joined, or go out and lead his men?

We have a good idea of the order of battle but, as far as I've seen, no exact placements - the reason nobody knew about Fenn Field until very recently - So, the primary thing that concerns me is, where were de Vere and ap Thomas? Did they leave their lieutenants to stay with the king, or stay with him, themselves?

We know there were cannon, and from what little I've retained from my reading, form of battle doesn't appear change much until ordinance becomes more effective. They were still wearing armour during the Civil War, so would guarding Charles I have been that much different?

N

Carol - This is the part I don't understand about medieval warfare - would the leader of a contingent of men stay with his own men, or ride with the nominal Leader - and then would he stay with the Leader until the battle was joined, or go out and lead his men?

We have a good idea of the order of battle but, as far as I've seen, no exact placements - the reason nobody knew about Fenn Field until very recently - So, the primary thing that concerns me is, where were de Vere and ap Thomas? Did they leave their lieutenants to stay with the king, or stay with him, themselves?

We know there were cannon, and from what little I've retained from my reading, form of battle doesn't appear change much until ordinance becomes more effective. They were still wearing armour during the Civil War, so would guarding Charles I have been that much different?

N

Medieval armies were divided into three wings, which engaged their opposite numbers at different stages of the battle, and their designated leaders really did lead them. So Oxford's wing engaged Norfolk's wing at the start of the battle, and after the defeat of Oxford's wing it was time for the two centres, led by Richard and Henry, to engage each other.

The leaders' bodyguards would have consisted of their own most trusted knights (in the case of a king, it would have been the knights and esquires of the Body). We know Sir John Cheyney and Sir William Brandon were right by Tudor because Richard unhorsed one and killed the other. Rhys ap Thomas must also have been amongst the bodyguard if the reports of his role in Richard's death are to be believed. A report from the French mercenaries suggests Henry also used them in a more general way as a shield.

Hi,

According to Debra Bayani, John Stow (writing about 100 years later) wrote that Henry 'assigned Sir John Savage and hee with aide of the Lord Stanley accompanied with the Earle of Pembroke Having a good company of horsemen and a small number of footmen.' In addition to the support of the Earl of Oxford, Cheney, and Rhys ap Thomas, she says that Gilbert Talbot was to the right of Henry with John Savage on the left, with William Brandon as following as standard bearer.

Another biographer of Jasper, Sara Elin Roberts also believes that Jasper was present at Bosworth citing Henry's lack of military experience and Jasper, who had been a veteran of many battles would have been unlikely to not help, especially given his constant loyalty to his nephew.

Where is it said that Jasper stayed at Shrewsbury? Was it something to do with the incident with Mitton?

Nico

On Sunday, 29 April 2018, 21:44:08 GMT+1, rwn7lcrtmx5ik2pn2z65srj3dvc7rbcbkgixtfmj@... [] <> wrote:

Carol - This is the part I don't understand about medieval warfare - would the leader of a contingent of men stay with his own men, or ride with the nominal Leader - and then would he stay with the Leader until the battle was joined, or go out and lead his men?

We have a good idea of the order of battle but, as far as I've seen, no exact placements - the reason nobody knew about Fenn Field until very recently - So, the primary thing that concerns me is, where were de Vere and ap Thomas? Did they leave their lieutenants to stay with the king, or stay with him, themselves?

We know there were cannon, and from what little I've retained from my reading, form of battle doesn't appear change much until ordinance becomes more effective. They were still wearing armour during the Civil War, so would guarding Charles I have been that much different?

N

Nance, I tried to reply to you but for some reason my reply didn't get through
It was this
Hello Nance, I'm sure our military historians know more than me, but there's always this claim that Rhys ap Thomas was the one who struck down Richard. If I had to guess I would say it was a collection of Welsh and foreign mercenaries, whilst Oxford, as you say, led the real fighting and HT cowered at the back.
Why I think this is that there was clearly no leader there to restrain them when they killed Richard. To kill an anointed king was a mortal sin and something that HT and MB would have to live with forever. People like Bolingbroke and Edward could probably live with the knowledge (although the killing was done furtively) but not someone like MB. I would have thought the aim would have been not to kill, but to capture Richard and get him to agree to a number of concessions - like Warwick had done with Edward in 1470. H
HT wasn't the King, Richard was, so would guarding him be that important. Sorry H
On Sunday, 29 April 2018, 21:44:08 BST, rwn7lcrtmx5ik2pn2z65srj3dvc7rbcbkgixtfmj@... [] <> wrote:

Carol - This is the part I don't understand about medieval warfare - would the leader of a contingent of men stay with his own men, or ride with the nominal Leader - and then would he stay with the Leader until the battle was joined, or go out and lead his men?

We have a good idea of the order of battle but, as far as I've seen, no exact placements - the reason nobody knew about Fenn Field until very recently - So, the primary thing that concerns me is, where were de Vere and ap Thomas? Did they leave their lieutenants to stay with the king, or stay with him, themselves?

We know there were cannon, and from what little I've retained from my reading, form of battle doesn't appear change much until ordinance becomes more effective. They were still wearing armour during the Civil War, so would guarding Charles I have been that much different?

N

Medieval armies were divided into three wings, which engaged their opposite numbers at different stages of the battle, and their designated leaders really did lead them. So Oxford's wing engaged Norfolk's wing at the start of the battle, and after the defeat of Oxford's wing it was time for the two centres, led by Richard and Henry, to engage each other.

The leaders' bodyguards would have consisted of their own most trusted knights (in the case of a king, it would have been the knights and esquires of the Body). We know Sir John Cheyney and Sir William Brandon were right by Tudor because Richard unhorsed one and killed the other. Rhys ap Thomas must also have been amongst the bodyguard if the reports of his role in Richard's death are to be believed. A report from the French mercenaries suggests Henry also used them in a more general way as a shield.

Thanks, Marie. Didn't know about the French mercenary report - who was it sent to?

Medieval armies were divided into three wings, which engaged their opposite numbers at different stages of the battle, and their designated leaders really did lead them. So Oxford's wing engaged Norfolk's wing at the start of the battle, and after the defeat of Oxford's wing it was time for the two centres, led by Richard and Henry, to engage each other.

The leaders' bodyguards would have consisted of their own most trusted knights (in the case of a king, it would have been the knights and esquires of the Body). We know Sir John Cheyney and Sir William Brandon were right by Tudor because Richard unhorsed one and killed the other. Rhys ap Thomas must also have been amongst the bodyguard if the reports of his role in Richard's death are to be believed. A report from the French mercenaries suggests Henry also used them in a more general way as a shield.

Hi,

According to Debra Bayani, John Stow (writing about 100 years later) wrote that Henry 'assigned Sir John Savage and hee with aide of the Lord Stanley accompanied with the Earle of Pembroke Having a good company of horsemen and a small number of footmen.' In addition to the support of the Earl of Oxford, Cheney, and Rhys ap Thomas, she says that Gilbert Talbot was to the right of Henry with John Savage on the left, with William Brandon as following as standard bearer.

Another biographer of Jasper, Sara Elin Roberts also believes that Jasper was present at Bosworth citing Henry's lack of military experience and Jasper, who had been a veteran of many battles would have been unlikely to not help, especially given his constant loyalty to his nephew.

Where is it said that Jasper stayed at Shrewsbury? Was it something to do with the incident with Mitton?

Nico

On Sunday, 29 April 2018, 21:44:08 GMT+1, rwn7lcrtmx5ik2pn2z65srj3dvc7rbcbkgixtfmj@... [] <> wrote:

Carol - This is the part I don't understand about medieval warfare - would the leader of a contingent of men stay with his own men, or ride with the nominal Leader - and then would he stay with the Leader until the battle was joined, or go out and lead his men?

We have a good idea of the order of battle but, as far as I've seen, no exact placements - the reason nobody knew about Fenn Field until very recently - So, the primary thing that concerns me is, where were de Vere and ap Thomas? Did they leave their lieutenants to stay with the king, or stay with him, themselves?

We know there were cannon, and from what little I've retained from my reading, form of battle doesn't appear change much until ordinance becomes more effective. They were still wearing armour during the Civil War, so would guarding Charles I have been that much different?

N

The French pikemen are what some have recently said were the reason Richard couldn't get to Tudor as they had him surrounded by a phalanx of pikes. The French pikemen also caused havoc on Norfolks wing. They fought with a style completely new to the English, unlooked for and unexpected. Paul

On 30 Apr 2018, at 16:02, 'Nance Crawford' Nance@... [] <> wrote:

Thanks, Marie. Didn't know about the French mercenary report - who was it sent to?

Medieval armies were divided into three wings, which engaged their opposite numbers at different stages of the battle, and their designated leaders really did lead them. So Oxford's wing engaged Norfolk's wing at the start of the battle, and after the defeat of Oxford's wing it was time for the two centres, led by Richard and Henry, to engage each other.

The leaders' bodyguards would have consisted of their own most trusted knights (in the case of a king, it would have been the knights and esquires of the Body). We know Sir John Cheyney and Sir William Brandon were right by Tudor because Richard unhorsed one and killed the other. Rhys ap Thomas must also have been amongst the bodyguard if the reports of his role in Richard's death are to be believed. A report from the French mercenaries suggests Henry also used them in a more general way as a shield.