Richard III Research and Discussion Archive

On the Society's site, there is a brief account of Edward IV's 1475 French campaign, written by Livia Visser-Fuchs. She wrote:

a German eyewitness recorded that 'on the Thursday, 31 August, the two brothers of the king of England came to Amiens and dined with the king in the morning'.

I'd like to find where she found this, and none of her sources cited are obvious choices.

Anyone here know?

A J

Sources listed are:

F.P. Barnard, Edward IV's French Expedition of 1475. The Leaders and their Badges, Oxford 1925, repr. Dursley 1975.J.R. Lander, 'The Hundred Years War and Edward IV's 1475 campaign in France', in Tudor Men and Institutions, ed. A.J. Slavin, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 1972, pp. 70-100Charles Ross, Edward IV, London 1974, pt III, 9, 'The King's Great Enterprise, 1472-1475'.Cora L. Scofield, The Life and Reign of Edward the Fourth, 2 vols, London 1923, vol. 2, bk IV, 'England and France'.Anne F. Sutton and Livia Visser-Fuchs, 'Chivalry and the Yorkist kings', in St George's Chapel, Windsor, in the Fifteenth Century, ed. C. Richmond and E. Scarff, Windsor 2001, pp. 107-33.

Hi AJ I can help a bit by excluding Ross. He relies on Commines, who though he says a lot about the partying at Amiens doesn't mention the brothers until he says that Richard didn't attend the bridge ceremony. I find the term 'German' a bit odd for the fifteenth century. Sorry can't help any more H



From: "ajhibbard@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 3 September 2017, 21:31
Subject: Does anyone recognize this source

On the Society's site, there is a brief account of Edward IV's 1475 French campaign, written by Livia Visser-Fuchs. She wrote:

a German eyewitness recorded that 'on the Thursday, 31 August, the two brothers of the king of England came to Amiens and dined with the king in the morning'.

I'd like to find where she found this, and none of her sources cited are obvious choices.

Anyone here know?

A J

Sources listed are:

F.P. Barnard, Edward IV's French Expedition of 1475. The Leaders and their Badges, Oxford 1925, repr. Dursley 1975.J.R. Lander, 'The Hundred Years War and Edward IV's 1475 campaign in France', in Tudor Men and Institutions, ed. A.J. Slavin, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 1972, pp. 70-100Charles Ross, Edward IV, London 1974, pt III, 9, 'The King's Great Enterprise, 1472-1475'.Cora L. Scofield, The Life and Reign of Edward the Fourth, 2 vols, London 1923, vol. 2, bk IV, 'England and France'.Anne F. Sutton and Livia Visser-Fuchs, 'Chivalry and the Yorkist kings', in St George's Chapel, Windsor, in the Fifteenth Century, ed. C. Richmond and E. Scarff, Windsor 2001, pp. 107-33.

Thanks Hilary. It's not Barnard or Scofield either.
A J

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 4:06 AM, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:
 

Hi AJ I can help a bit by excluding Ross. He relies on Commines, who though he says a lot about the partying at Amiens doesn't mention the brothers until he says that Richard didn't attend the bridge ceremony. I find the term 'German' a bit odd for the fifteenth century.  Sorry can't help any more H



From: "ajhibbard@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com>
To: @ yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 3 September 2017, 21:31
Subject: Does anyone recognize this source

  On the Society's site, there is a brief account of Edward IV's 1475 French campaign, written by Livia Visser-Fuchs. She wrote:

a German eyewitness recorded that 'on the Thursday, 31 August, the two brothers of the king of England came to Amiens and dined with the king in the morning'.

I'd like to find where she found this, and none of her sources cited are obvious choices.

Anyone here know?

A J

Sources listed are:

F.P. Barnard, Edward IV's French Expedition of 1475. The Leaders and their Badges, Oxford 1925, repr. Dursley 1975.J.R. Lander, 'The Hundred Years War and Edward IV's 1475 campaign in France', in Tudor Men and Institutions, ed. A.J. Slavin, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 1972, pp. 70-100Charles Ross, Edward IV, London 1974, pt III, 9, 'The King's Great Enterprise, 1472-1475'.Cora L. Scofield, The Life and Reign of Edward the Fourth, 2 vols, London 1923, vol. 2, bk IV, 'England and France'.Anne F. Sutton and Livia Visser-Fuchs, 'Chivalry and the Yorkist kings', in St George's Chapel, Windsor, in the Fifteenth Century, ed. C. Richmond and E. Scarff, Windsor 2001, pp. 107-33.

Wherever he was from precisely, German could well have been his native language, and if they actually talked in Latin, it wouldn't have been necessary to delve down further. German was spoken from the Baltic to Vienna, though the details of Hochdeutsch - the non-dialect language - would have changed as one moved around.

Best wishes

Christine

On 05-Sep-17 10:06, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] wrote:
  Hi AJ I can help a bit by excluding Ross. He relies on Commines, who though he says a lot about the partying at Amiens doesn't mention the brothers until he says that Richard didn't attend the bridge ceremony. I find the term 'German' a bit odd for the fifteenth century.  Sorry can't help any more H



From: "ajhibbard@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 3 September 2017, 21:31
Subject: [Richard III Society Forum] Does anyone recognize this source

  On the Society's site, there is a brief account of Edward IV's 1475 French campaign, written by Livia Visser-Fuchs. She wrote:

a German eyewitness recorded that 'on the Thursday, 31 August, the two brothers of the king of England came to Amiens and dined with the king in the morning'.

I'd like to find where she found this, and none of her sources cited are obvious choices.

Anyone here know?

A J

Sources listed are:

F.P. Barnard, Edward IV's French Expedition of 1475. The Leaders and their Badges, Oxford 1925, repr. Dursley 1975. J.R. Lander, 'The Hundred Years War and Edward IV's 1475 campaign in France', in Tudor Men and Institutions, ed. A.J. Slavin, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 1972, pp. 70-100 Charles Ross, Edward IV, London 1974, pt III, 9, 'The King's Great Enterprise, 1472-1475'. Cora L. Scofield, The Life and Reign of Edward the Fourth, 2 vols, London 1923, vol. 2, bk IV, 'England and France'. Anne F. Sutton and Livia Visser-Fuchs, 'Chivalry and the Yorkist kings', in St George's Chapel, Windsor, in the Fifteenth Century, ed. C. Richmond and E. Scarff, Windsor 2001, pp. 107-33.

Here's what I was able to track down.

Basler Chroniken, Volume 2 (ed Wilhelm Vischer, Heinrich Boos)
Basler Chroniken
Herausgegeben
von der Historischen und Antiquarischen Gesellschaft in Basel
Zweiter Band
Erausgegeben durch
Wilhelm Vischer und Heinrich Boos.
Laipzig. 1880.

Johannis Knebel capellani ecclesiae Basiliensis diarium. Hans Knebels, des Kaplans am Munster zu Basel, Tagebuch. Sept. 1473Jun. 1476 & 1- 436

https://books.google.com/books?id=AwxPAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:cWiuZsB1Z2AC&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbypjf6InWAhWB5YMKHcDKByE4ChDoAQgqMAA#v=snippet&q=clarence&f=false

1475
several pages before & after p 292 that seem to be dealing with Amiens
p 293
Frow, es ist wor dasz der kung von Engellandt mit sinene sweyn brudern, genant von Cerant und von Clocestre [der Herzoge George von Clarence und Richard von Glocester, der nachmalige Richard III.], mit 26000 strittbarer man zu besehen etlich bosz undertan des richs und sind kommen uber daw wasser do ine bisz uff 10 kleiner mile zu besehen den kung und mit gewalt zu uberkommen sin kungrich

A J