Richard III Research and Discussion Archive
John and Katherine
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ?
What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?
Re: John and Katherine
As for Edward IV, he was rumoured to have had 5 illegitimate children, who are listed on his Wikipedia page (although there may have been 2 Arthurs). He didn't give formal recognition to any of them, but some did receive unusual privileges such as titles and good marriages. There doesn't seem to have been a standard procedure for recognizing bastard offspring. Some people like Richard acknowledged them publicly in formal documents, others kept it private and gave a few benefits, whereas others ignored them. Perkin may have been another illegitimate child of Edward, but Richard, Clarence and Margaret are also possibilities. (Imho, Margaret is the prime suspect if Perkin was not Richard of Shrewsbury.)
Nico
On Thursday, 22 June 2017, 22:15, romanenemo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ? What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?
Re: John and Katherine
Romane
Re: John and Katherine
On Jun 23, 2017 8:30 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <> wrote:
We had a recent thread speculating about John and Katherine, but still they are mostly a mystery, and there are no records of them before Richard became King. John was knighted and was made Captain of Calais, while Katherine was married to William Herbert, but died sometime between Bosworth and Elizabeth's coronation. John was awarded an annuity after Bosworth, but his fate afterwards is unknown. (The passage in Buck that Henry had him 'made away' is confused and not supported by contemporary evidence; he could also have been the John Gloucester of the Calais staple that was given a pardon in 1504.) That is more or less all we know about them for certain. Their mother(s) isn't known either (see the thread for the debate about that), and the story about them growing up at Middleham is from novels like The Sunne in Splendour, although I don't know if arrangements like that were more common then than now. Personally, I would think Anne would have found it rather difficult.
As for Edward IV, he was rumoured to have had 5 illegitimate children, who are listed on his Wikipedia page (although there may have been 2 Arthurs). He didn't give formal recognition to any of them, but some did receive unusual privileges such as titles and good marriages. There doesn't seem to have been a standard procedure for recognizing bastard offspring. Some people like Richard acknowledged them publicly in formal documents, others kept it private and gave a few benefits, whereas others ignored them. Perkin may have been another illegitimate child of Edward, but Richard, Clarence and Margaret are also possibilities. (Imho, Margaret is the prime suspect if Perkin was not Richard of Shrewsbury.)
Nico
On Thursday, 22 June 2017, 22:15, romanenemo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ? What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?
Re: John and Katherine
There were also rumours that Perkin was the illegitimate son of Margaret and the Bishop of Cambrai. Margaret and Charles did not have a particularly happy marriage, and he was away a lot. John Ashdown-Hill raised the possibility that he may have been gay, and that could be a possibility, because he didn't seem to make much effort to be a good husband to Margaret. Whatever the reason, Margaret may have been lonely and found comfort with someone else. If she did have an illegitimate son before her marriage, he would be a bit old to be Perkin, but there was an episode in early 1473, where Margaret went into seclusion at a convent. There was also the ambassador who claimed that Maximilian had told him that Perkin was Margaret's son. She was certainly close to Perkin, and there was an intimacy to their relationship that went way beyond what you would expect of a hired imposter. The father may have been the Bishop of Cambrai, who had been Margaret's confessor, but it could have been someone else. Incidentally, in 1472 the composer Gaspar van Weerbeke was resident at the Burgundian Court, and Margaret was herself musically orientated. It is difficult to find out much information on Gaspar van Weerbeke, but the name is the Flemish spelling of Werbeque. He was also from Oudenaarde, where Jean de Werbeque originally came from and was around the same age. Van Weerbeke was said to have been illegitimate, but chances are that he was related to Jean de Werbeque in some way and knew him. Could an illegitimate son of Margaret and the court composer have been fostered out to his father's relatives with assistance from the Bishop of Cambrai?
Nico
On Friday, 23 June 2017, 16:46, "Karen cmasters1335@... []" <> wrote:
Didn't Louis of France accuse Margaret of being an unchaste bride and bearing a bastard?
On Jun 23, 2017 8:30 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <> wrote:
We had a recent thread speculating about John and Katherine, but still they are mostly a mystery, and there are no records of them before Richard became King. John was knighted and was made Captain of Calais, while Katherine was married to William Herbert, but died sometime between Bosworth and Elizabeth's coronation. John was awarded an annuity after Bosworth, but his fate afterwards is unknown. (The passage in Buck that Henry had him 'made away' is confused and not supported by contemporary evidence; he could also have been the John Gloucester of the Calais staple that was given a pardon in 1504.) That is more or less all we know about them for certain. Their mother(s) isn't known either (see the thread for the debate about that), and the story about them growing up at Middleham is from novels like The Sunne in Splendour, although I don't know if arrangements like that were more common then than now. Personally, I would think Anne would have found it rather difficult.
As for Edward IV, he was rumoured to have had 5 illegitimate children, who are listed on his Wikipedia page (although there may have been 2 Arthurs). He didn't give formal recognition to any of them, but some did receive unusual privileges such as titles and good marriages. There doesn't seem to have been a standard procedure for recognizing bastard offspring. Some people like Richard acknowledged them publicly in formal documents, others kept it private and gave a few benefits, whereas others ignored them. Perkin may have been another illegitimate child of Edward, but Richard, Clarence and Margaret are also possibilities. (Imho, Margaret is the prime suspect if Perkin was not Richard of Shrewsbury.)
Nico
On Thursday, 22 June 2017, 22:15, romanenemo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ? What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?
Re: John and Katherine
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Saturday, 24 June 2017, 14:53
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Louis did make that allegation when Margaret's marriage to Charles the Bold was being negotiated, as he was desperate to stop the negotiations for political reasons and nothing has ever been found that would substantiate this rumour. However it was a strong and defamatory accusation to make if it was completely unfounded. Also, I believe there was a clause in the marriage dispensation that mentioned affinity, which shouldn't have been necessary if neither Margaret nor Charles had been in a relationship with one the other's relatives. It could have just been a legal clause to cover everything.
There were also rumours that Perkin was the illegitimate son of Margaret and the Bishop of Cambrai. Margaret and Charles did not have a particularly happy marriage, and he was away a lot. John Ashdown-Hill raised the possibility that he may have been gay, and that could be a possibility, because he didn't seem to make much effort to be a good husband to Margaret. Whatever the reason, Margaret may have been lonely and found comfort with someone else. If she did have an illegitimate son before her marriage, he would be a bit old to be Perkin, but there was an episode in early 1473, where Margaret went into seclusion at a convent. There was also the ambassador who claimed that Maximilian had told him that Perkin was Margaret's son. She was certainly close to Perkin, and there was an intimacy to their relationship that went way beyond what you would expect of a hired imposter. The father may have been the Bishop of Cambrai, who had been Margaret's confessor, but it could have been someone else. Incidentally, in 1472 the composer Gaspar van Weerbeke was resident at the Burgundian Court, and Margaret was herself musically orientated. It is difficult to find out much information on Gaspar van Weerbeke, but the name is the Flemish spelling of Werbeque. He was also from Oudenaarde, where Jean de Werbeque originally came from and was around the same age. Van Weerbeke was said to have been illegitimate, but chances are that he was related to Jean de Werbeque in some way and knew him. Could an illegitimate son of Margaret and the court composer have been fostered out to his father's relatives with assistance from the Bishop of Cambrai?
Nico
On Friday, 23 June 2017, 16:46, "Karen cmasters1335@... []" <> wrote:
Didn't Louis of France accuse Margaret of being an unchaste bride and bearing a bastard?
On Jun 23, 2017 8:30 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <> wrote:
We had a recent thread speculating about John and Katherine, but still they are mostly a mystery, and there are no records of them before Richard became King. John was knighted and was made Captain of Calais, while Katherine was married to William Herbert, but died sometime between Bosworth and Elizabeth's coronation. John was awarded an annuity after Bosworth, but his fate afterwards is unknown. (The passage in Buck that Henry had him 'made away' is confused and not supported by contemporary evidence; he could also have been the John Gloucester of the Calais staple that was given a pardon in 1504.) That is more or less all we know about them for certain. Their mother(s) isn't known either (see the thread for the debate about that), and the story about them growing up at Middleham is from novels like The Sunne in Splendour, although I don't know if arrangements like that were more common then than now. Personally, I would think Anne would have found it rather difficult.
As for Edward IV, he was rumoured to have had 5 illegitimate children, who are listed on his Wikipedia page (although there may have been 2 Arthurs). He didn't give formal recognition to any of them, but some did receive unusual privileges such as titles and good marriages. There doesn't seem to have been a standard procedure for recognizing bastard offspring. Some people like Richard acknowledged them publicly in formal documents, others kept it private and gave a few benefits, whereas others ignored them. Perkin may have been another illegitimate child of Edward, but Richard, Clarence and Margaret are also possibilities. (Imho, Margaret is the prime suspect if Perkin was not Richard of Shrewsbury.)
Nico
On Thursday, 22 June 2017, 22:15, romanenemo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ? What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?
Re: John and Katherine
Buy a full, paid reading ($20) Use Paypal, a free money transfer service. If you are not satisfied with your reading, I do refund. Psychic astrology or Past life reading $50. If you like your reading please write a review http://local.yahoo.com/info-42700763-psychicworlds-mansfield;_ylt=Auxg16ObD9tFvEBTHKseQMqHNcIF;_ylv=3?csz=Mansfield%2C+OH,
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 4:36 AM, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []" <> wrote:
Interesting Nico- I didn't know all this. H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Saturday, 24 June 2017, 14:53
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Louis did make that allegation when Margaret's marriage to Charles the Bold was being negotiated, as he was desperate to stop the negotiations for political reasons and nothing has ever been found that would substantiate this rumour. However it was a strong and defamatory accusation to make if it was completely unfounded. Also, I believe there was a clause in the marriage dispensation that mentioned affinity, which shouldn't have been necessary if neither Margaret nor Charles had been in a relationship with one the other's relatives. It could have just been a legal clause to cover everything.
There were also rumours that Perkin was the illegitimate son of Margaret and the Bishop of Cambrai. Margaret and Charles did not have a particularly happy marriage, and he was away a lot. John Ashdown-Hill raised the possibility that he may have been gay, and that could be a possibility, because he didn't seem to make much effort to be a good husband to Margaret. Whatever the reason, Margaret may have been lonely and found comfort with someone else. If she did have an illegitimate son before her marriage, he would be a bit old to be Perkin, but there was an episode in early 1473, where Margaret went into seclusion at a convent. There was also the ambassador who claimed that Maximilian had told him that Perkin was Margaret's son. She was certainly close to Perkin, and there was an intimacy to their relationship that went way beyond what you would expect of a hired imposter. The father may have been the Bishop of Cambrai, who had been Margaret's confessor, but it could have been someone else. Incidentally, in 1472 the composer Gaspar van Weerbeke was resident at the Burgundian Court, and Margaret was herself musically orientated. It is difficult to find out much information on Gaspar van Weerbeke, but the name is the Flemish spelling of Werbeque. He was also from Oudenaarde, where Jean de Werbeque originally came from and was around the same age. Van Weerbeke was said to have been illegitimate, but chances are that he was related to Jean de Werbeque in some way and knew him. Could an illegitimate son of Margaret and the court composer have been fostered out to his father's relatives with assistance from the Bishop of Cambrai?
Nico
On Friday, 23 June 2017, 16:46, "Karen cmasters1335@... []" <> wrote:
Didn't Louis of France accuse Margaret of being an unchaste bride and bearing a bastard?
On Jun 23, 2017 8:30 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <> wrote:
We had a recent thread speculating about John and Katherine, but still they are mostly a mystery, and there are no records of them before Richard became King. John was knighted and was made Captain of Calais, while Katherine was married to William Herbert, but died sometime between Bosworth and Elizabeth's coronation. John was awarded an annuity after Bosworth, but his fate afterwards is unknown. (The passage in Buck that Henry had him 'made away' is confused and not supported by contemporary evidence; he could also have been the John Gloucester of the Calais staple that was given a pardon in 1504.) That is more or less all we know about them for certain. Their mother(s) isn't known either (see the thread for the debate about that), and the story about them growing up at Middleham is from novels like The Sunne in Splendour, although I don't know if arrangements like that were more common then than now. Personally, I would think Anne would have found it rather difficult.
As for Edward IV, he was rumoured to have had 5 illegitimate children, who are listed on his Wikipedia page (although there may have been 2 Arthurs). He didn't give formal recognition to any of them, but some did receive unusual privileges such as titles and good marriages. There doesn't seem to have been a standard procedure for recognizing bastard offspring. Some people like Richard acknowledged them publicly in formal documents, others kept it private and gave a few benefits, whereas others ignored them. Perkin may have been another illegitimate child of Edward, but Richard, Clarence and Margaret are also possibilities. (Imho, Margaret is the prime suspect if Perkin was not Richard of Shrewsbury.)
Nico
On Thursday, 22 June 2017, 22:15, romanenemo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ? What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?
Re: John and Katherine
Which JA-H book is that in? I would like to read more about that. Is it The Private Life of Edward IV?
Btw, I do astrology too, but recently it has been a controversial subject on the forum. I think we left it that anything astrological has to posted in the Files section.
Nico
On Saturday, 1 July 2017, 17:06:56 GMT+1, Cassandra Masters cmasters1335@... [] <> wrote:
JAH suggests that during the second exile Richard and or Edward took on one of the women of the household they were staying in as a mistress. Nice and convenient eh? Perkin was either Edward's or Richard's son.
Buy a full, paid reading ($20) Use Paypal, a free money transfer service. If you are not satisfied with your reading, I do refund. Psychic astrology or Past life reading $50. If you like your reading please write a review http://local.yahoo.com/info-42700763-psychicworlds-mansfield;_ylt=Auxg16ObD9tFvEBTHKseQMqHNcIF;_ylv=3?csz=Mansfield%2C+OH,
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 4:36 AM, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []" <> wrote:
Interesting Nico- I didn't know all this. H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Saturday, 24 June 2017, 14:53
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Louis did make that allegation when Margaret's marriage to Charles the Bold was being negotiated, as he was desperate to stop the negotiations for political reasons and nothing has ever been found that would substantiate this rumour. However it was a strong and defamatory accusation to make if it was completely unfounded. Also, I believe there was a clause in the marriage dispensation that mentioned affinity, which shouldn't have been necessary if neither Margaret nor Charles had been in a relationship with one the other's relatives. It could have just been a legal clause to cover everything.
There were also rumours that Perkin was the illegitimate son of Margaret and the Bishop of Cambrai. Margaret and Charles did not have a particularly happy marriage, and he was away a lot. John Ashdown-Hill raised the possibility that he may have been gay, and that could be a possibility, because he didn't seem to make much effort to be a good husband to Margaret. Whatever the reason, Margaret may have been lonely and found comfort with someone else. If she did have an illegitimate son before her marriage, he would be a bit old to be Perkin, but there was an episode in early 1473, where Margaret went into seclusion at a convent. There was also the ambassador who claimed that Maximilian had told him that Perkin was Margaret's son. She was certainly close to Perkin, and there was an intimacy to their relationship that went way beyond what you would expect of a hired imposter. The father may have been the Bishop of Cambrai, who had been Margaret's confessor, but it could have been someone else. Incidentally, in 1472 the composer Gaspar van Weerbeke was resident at the Burgundian Court, and Margaret was herself musically orientated. It is difficult to find out much information on Gaspar van Weerbeke, but the name is the Flemish spelling of Werbeque. He was also from Oudenaarde, where Jean de Werbeque originally came from and was around the same age. Van Weerbeke was said to have been illegitimate, but chances are that he was related to Jean de Werbeque in some way and knew him. Could an illegitimate son of Margaret and the court composer have been fostered out to his father's relatives with assistance from the Bishop of Cambrai?
Nico
On Friday, 23 June 2017, 16:46, "Karen cmasters1335@... []" <> wrote:
Didn't Louis of France accuse Margaret of being an unchaste bride and bearing a bastard?
On Jun 23, 2017 8:30 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <> wrote:
We had a recent thread speculating about John and Katherine, but still they are mostly a mystery, and there are no records of them before Richard became King. John was knighted and was made Captain of Calais, while Katherine was married to William Herbert, but died sometime between Bosworth and Elizabeth's coronation. John was awarded an annuity after Bosworth, but his fate afterwards is unknown. (The passage in Buck that Henry had him 'made away' is confused and not supported by contemporary evidence; he could also have been the John Gloucester of the Calais staple that was given a pardon in 1504.) That is more or less all we know about them for certain. Their mother(s) isn't known either (see the thread for the debate about that), and the story about them growing up at Middleham is from novels like The Sunne in Splendour, although I don't know if arrangements like that were more common then than now. Personally, I would think Anne would have found it rather difficult.
As for Edward IV, he was rumoured to have had 5 illegitimate children, who are listed on his Wikipedia page (although there may have been 2 Arthurs). He didn't give formal recognition to any of them, but some did receive unusual privileges such as titles and good marriages. There doesn't seem to have been a standard procedure for recognizing bastard offspring. Some people like Richard acknowledged them publicly in formal documents, others kept it private and gave a few benefits, whereas others ignored them. Perkin may have been another illegitimate child of Edward, but Richard, Clarence and Margaret are also possibilities. (Imho, Margaret is the prime suspect if Perkin was not Richard of Shrewsbury.)
Nico
On Thursday, 22 June 2017, 22:15, romanenemo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ? What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?
Re: John and Katherine
On Jul 3, 2017 7:06 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <> wrote:
Hi Cassandra,
Which JA-H book is that in? I would like to read more about that. Is it The Private Life of Edward IV?
Btw, I do astrology too, but recently it has been a controversial subject on the forum. I think we left it that anything astrological has to posted in the Files section.
Nico
On Saturday, 1 July 2017, 17:06:56 GMT+1, Cassandra Masters cmasters1335@... [] <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
JAH suggests that during the second exile Richard and or Edward took on one of the women of the household they were staying in as a mistress. Nice and convenient eh? Perkin was either Edward's or Richard's son.
Buy a full, paid reading ($20) Use Paypal, a free money transfer service. If you are not satisfied with your reading, I do refund. Psychic astrology or Past life reading $50. If you like your reading please write a review http://local.yahoo.com/info- 42700763-psychicworlds- mansfield;_ylt= Auxg16ObD9tFvEBTHKseQMqHNcIF;_ ylv=3?csz=Mansfield%2C+OH,
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 4:36 AM, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Interesting Nico- I didn't know all this. H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com>
To: "@ yahoogroups.com" <@ yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 24 June 2017, 14:53
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Louis did make that allegation when Margaret's marriage to Charles the Bold was being negotiated, as he was desperate to stop the negotiations for political reasons and nothing has ever been found that would substantiate this rumour. However it was a strong and defamatory accusation to make if it was completely unfounded. Also, I believe there was a clause in the marriage dispensation that mentioned affinity, which shouldn't have been necessary if neither Margaret nor Charles had been in a relationship with one the other's relatives. It could have just been a legal clause to cover everything.
There were also rumours that Perkin was the illegitimate son of Margaret and the Bishop of Cambrai. Margaret and Charles did not have a particularly happy marriage, and he was away a lot. John Ashdown-Hill raised the possibility that he may have been gay, and that could be a possibility, because he didn't seem to make much effort to be a good husband to Margaret. Whatever the reason, Margaret may have been lonely and found comfort with someone else. If she did have an illegitimate son before her marriage, he would be a bit old to be Perkin, but there was an episode in early 1473, where Margaret went into seclusion at a convent. There was also the ambassador who claimed that Maximilian had told him that Perkin was Margaret's son. She was certainly close to Perkin, and there was an intimacy to their relationship that went way beyond what you would expect of a hired imposter. The father may have been the Bishop of Cambrai, who had been Margaret's confessor, but it could have been someone else. Incidentally, in 1472 the composer Gaspar van Weerbeke was resident at the Burgundian Court, and Margaret was herself musically orientated. It is difficult to find out much information on Gaspar van Weerbeke, but the name is the Flemish spelling of Werbeque. He was also from Oudenaarde, where Jean de Werbeque originally came from and was around the same age. Van Weerbeke was said to have been illegitimate, but chances are that he was related to Jean de Werbeque in some way and knew him. Could an illegitimate son of Margaret and the court composer have been fostered out to his father's relatives with assistance from the Bishop of Cambrai?
Nico
On Friday, 23 June 2017, 16:46, "Karen cmasters1335@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Didn't Louis of France accuse Margaret of being an unchaste bride and bearing a bastard?
On Jun 23, 2017 8:30 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
We had a recent thread speculating about John and Katherine, but still they are mostly a mystery, and there are no records of them before Richard became King. John was knighted and was made Captain of Calais, while Katherine was married to William Herbert, but died sometime between Bosworth and Elizabeth's coronation. John was awarded an annuity after Bosworth, but his fate afterwards is unknown. (The passage in Buck that Henry had him 'made away' is confused and not supported by contemporary evidence; he could also have been the John Gloucester of the Calais staple that was given a pardon in 1504.) That is more or less all we know about them for certain. Their mother(s) isn't known either (see the thread for the debate about that), and the story about them growing up at Middleham is from novels like The Sunne in Splendour, although I don't know if arrangements like that were more common then than now. Personally, I would think Anne would have found it rather difficult.
As for Edward IV, he was rumoured to have had 5 illegitimate children, who are listed on his Wikipedia page (although there may have been 2 Arthurs). He didn't give formal recognition to any of them, but some did receive unusual privileges such as titles and good marriages. There doesn't seem to have been a standard procedure for recognizing bastard offspring. Some people like Richard acknowledged them publicly in formal documents, others kept it private and gave a few benefits, whereas others ignored them. Perkin may have been another illegitimate child of Edward, but Richard, Clarence and Margaret are also possibilities. (Imho, Margaret is the prime suspect if Perkin was not Richard of Shrewsbury.)
Nico
On Thursday, 22 June 2017, 22:15, romanenemo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ? What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?
Re: John and Katherine
Maybe I'm being picky, but do you mean JA-H (John Ashdown-Hill), rather than JOSH? You are not the first person that I have noticed making typos when typing the abbreviations for people we're talking about, and I find it makes it even more tricky to follow the discussion than it ordinarily it is. Someone else typed the wrong initials for one of our period players I forget which one just now. But please take pity on my ancient senior cognition and be careful when you are abbreviating either that, or write the name out, in which case you can get one or two of the letters wrong and still be understandable. =
Thank you!
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Karen O karenoder4@... []<mailto:>
Sent: July 3, 2017 8:29 AM
To: <mailto:>
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Yes. Private life. JOSH contends that Edward was attached to several women in his life but was not a "wanderer". He regards this as maligning. He also really believes he had a gay fling.
On Jul 3, 2017 7:06 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:nico11238@...> []" <<mailto:>> wrote:
Hi Cassandra,
Which JA-H book is that in? I would like to read more about that. Is it The Private Life of Edward IV?
Btw, I do astrology too, but recently it has been a controversial subject on the forum. I think we left it that anything astrological has to posted in the Files section.
Nico
On Saturday, 1 July 2017, 17:06:56 GMT+1, Cassandra Masters cmasters1335@...<mailto:cmasters1335@...> [] <<mailto:>> wrote:
JAH suggests that during the second exile Richard and or Edward took on one of the women of the household they were staying in as a mistress. Nice and convenient eh? Perkin was either Edward's or Richard's son.
Buy a full, paid reading ($20) Use Paypal, a free money transfer service. If you are not satisfied with your reading, I do refund. Psychic astrology or Past life reading $50. If you like your reading please write a review http://local.yahoo.com/info-42700763-psychicworlds-mansfield;_ylt=Auxg16ObD9tFvEBTHKseQMqHNcIF;_ylv=3?csz=Mansfield%2C+OH,
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 4:36 AM, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@...<mailto:hjnatdat@...> []" <<mailto:>> wrote:
Interesting Nico- I didn't know all this. H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:nico11238@...> []" <<mailto:>>
To: "<mailto:>" <<mailto:>>
Sent: Saturday, 24 June 2017, 14:53
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Louis did make that allegation when Margaret's marriage to Charles the Bold was being negotiated, as he was desperate to stop the negotiations for political reasons and nothing has ever been found that would substantiate this rumour. However it was a strong and defamatory accusation to make if it was completely unfounded. Also, I believe there was a clause in the marriage dispensation that mentioned affinity, which shouldn't have been necessary if neither Margaret nor Charles had been in a relationship with one the other's relatives. It could have just been a legal clause to cover everything.
There were also rumours that Perkin was the illegitimate son of Margaret and the Bishop of Cambrai. Margaret and Charles did not have a particularly happy marriage, and he was away a lot. John Ashdown-Hill raised the possibility that he may have been gay, and that could be a possibility, because he didn't seem to make much effort to be a good husband to Margaret. Whatever the reason, Margaret may have been lonely and found comfort with someone else. If she did have an illegitimate son before her marriage, he would be a bit old to be Perkin, but there was an episode in early 1473, where Margaret went into seclusion at a convent. There was also the ambassador who claimed that Maximilian had told him that Perkin was Margaret's son. She was certainly close to Perkin, and there was an intimacy to their relationship that went way beyond what you would expect of a hired imposter. The father may have been the Bishop of Cambrai, who had been Margaret's confessor, but it could have been someone else. Incidentally, in 1472 the composer Gaspar van Weerbeke was resident at the Burgundian Court, and Margaret was herself musically orientated. It is difficult to find out much information on Gaspar van Weerbeke, but the name is the Flemish spelling of Werbeque. He was also from Oudenaarde, where Jean de Werbeque originally came from and was around the same age. Van Weerbeke was said to have been illegitimate, but chances are that he was related to Jean de Werbeque in some way and knew him. Could an illegitimate son of Margaret and the court composer have been fostered out to his father's relatives with assistance from the Bishop of Cambrai?
Nico
On Friday, 23 June 2017, 16:46, "Karen cmasters1335@...<mailto:cmasters1335@...> []" <<mailto:>> wrote:
Didn't Louis of France accuse Margaret of being an unchaste bride and bearing a bastard?
On Jun 23, 2017 8:30 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:nico11238@...> []" <<mailto:>> wrote:
We had a recent thread speculating about John and Katherine, but still they are mostly a mystery, and there are no records of them before Richard became King. John was knighted and was made Captain of Calais, while Katherine was married to William Herbert, but died sometime between Bosworth and Elizabeth's coronation. John was awarded an annuity after Bosworth, but his fate afterwards is unknown. (The passage in Buck that Henry had him 'made away' is confused and not supported by contemporary evidence; he could also have been the John Gloucester of the Calais staple that was given a pardon in 1504.) That is more or less all we know about them for certain. Their mother(s) isn't known either (see the thread for the debate about that), and the story about them growing up at Middleham is from novels like The Sunne in Splendour, although I don't know if arrangements like that were more common then than now. Personally, I would think Anne would have found it rather difficult.
As for Edward IV, he was rumoured to have had 5 illegitimate children, who are listed on his Wikipedia page (although there may have been 2 Arthurs). He didn't give formal recognition to any of them, but some did receive unusual privileges such as titles and good marriages. There doesn't seem to have been a standard procedure for recognizing bastard offspring. Some people like Richard acknowledged them publicly in formal documents, others kept it private and gave a few benefits, whereas others ignored them. Perkin may have been another illegitimate child of Edward, but Richard, Clarence and Margaret are also possibilities. (Imho, Margaret is the prime suspect if Perkin was not Richard of Shrewsbury.)
Nico
On Thursday, 22 June 2017, 22:15, romanenemo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com<mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ?
What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?
Re: John and Katherine
On Jul 3, 2017 10:34 AM, "Johanne Tournier jltournier60@... []" <> wrote:
Hi, Karen
Maybe I'm being picky, but do you mean JA-H (John Ashdown-Hill), rather than JOSH? You are not the first person that I have noticed making typos when typing the abbreviations for people we're talking about, and I find it makes it even more tricky to follow the discussion than it ordinarily it is. Someone else typed the wrong initials for one of our period players I forget which one just now. But please take pity on my ancient senior cognition and be careful when you are abbreviating either that, or write the name out, in which case you can get one or two of the letters wrong and still be understandable. =
Thank you!
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Karen O karenoder4@... []< mailto:@ yahoogroups.com>
Sent: July 3, 2017 8:29 AM
To: @ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Yes. Private life. JOSH contends that Edward was attached to several women in his life but was not a "wanderer". He regards this as maligning. He also really believes he had a gay fling.
On Jul 3, 2017 7:06 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:n ico11238@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
Hi Cassandra,
Which JA-H book is that in? I would like to read more about that. Is it The Private Life of Edward IV?
Btw, I do astrology too, but recently it has been a controversial subject on the forum. I think we left it that anything astrological has to posted in the Files section.
Nico
On Saturday, 1 July 2017, 17:06:56 GMT+1, Cassandra Masters cmasters1335@...<mailto: cmasters1335@...> [] <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
JAH suggests that during the second exile Richard and or Edward took on one of the women of the household they were staying in as a mistress. Nice and convenient eh? Perkin was either Edward's or Richard's son.
Buy a full, paid reading ($20) Use Paypal, a free money transfer service. If you are not satisfied with your reading, I do refund. Psychic astrology or Past life reading $50. If you like your reading please write a review http://local.yahoo.com/info- 42700763-psychicworlds- mansfield;_ylt= Auxg16ObD9tFvEBTHKseQMqHNcIF;_ ylv=3?csz=Mansfield%2C+OH,
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 4:36 AM, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@...<mailto:hjna tdat@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
Interesting Nico- I didn't know all this. H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:n ico11238@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>>
To: "@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>>
Sent: Saturday, 24 June 2017, 14:53
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Louis did make that allegation when Margaret's marriage to Charles the Bold was being negotiated, as he was desperate to stop the negotiations for political reasons and nothing has ever been found that would substantiate this rumour. However it was a strong and defamatory accusation to make if it was completely unfounded. Also, I believe there was a clause in the marriage dispensation that mentioned affinity, which shouldn't have been necessary if neither Margaret nor Charles had been in a relationship with one the other's relatives. It could have just been a legal clause to cover everything.
There were also rumours that Perkin was the illegitimate son of Margaret and the Bishop of Cambrai. Margaret and Charles did not have a particularly happy marriage, and he was away a lot. John Ashdown-Hill raised the possibility that he may have been gay, and that could be a possibility, because he didn't seem to make much effort to be a good husband to Margaret. Whatever the reason, Margaret may have been lonely and found comfort with someone else. If she did have an illegitimate son before her marriage, he would be a bit old to be Perkin, but there was an episode in early 1473, where Margaret went into seclusion at a convent. There was also the ambassador who claimed that Maximilian had told him that Perkin was Margaret's son. She was certainly close to Perkin, and there was an intimacy to their relationship that went way beyond what you would expect of a hired imposter. The father may have been the Bishop of Cambrai, who had been Margaret's confessor, but it could have been someone else. Incidentally, in 1472 the composer Gaspar van Weerbeke was resident at the Burgundian Court, and Margaret was herself musically orientated. It is difficult to find out much information on Gaspar van Weerbeke, but the name is the Flemish spelling of Werbeque. He was also from Oudenaarde, where Jean de Werbeque originally came from and was around the same age. Van Weerbeke was said to have been illegitimate, but chances are that he was related to Jean de Werbeque in some way and knew him. Could an illegitimate son of Margaret and the court composer have been fostered out to his father's relatives with assistance from the Bishop of Cambrai?
Nico
On Friday, 23 June 2017, 16:46, "Karen cmasters1335@...<mailto: cmasters1335@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
Didn't Louis of France accuse Margaret of being an unchaste bride and bearing a bastard?
On Jun 23, 2017 8:30 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:n ico11238@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
We had a recent thread speculating about John and Katherine, but still they are mostly a mystery, and there are no records of them before Richard became King. John was knighted and was made Captain of Calais, while Katherine was married to William Herbert, but died sometime between Bosworth and Elizabeth's coronation. John was awarded an annuity after Bosworth, but his fate afterwards is unknown. (The passage in Buck that Henry had him 'made away' is confused and not supported by contemporary evidence; he could also have been the John Gloucester of the Calais staple that was given a pardon in 1504.) That is more or less all we know about them for certain. Their mother(s) isn't known either (see the thread for the debate about that), and the story about them growing up at Middleham is from novels like The Sunne in Splendour, although I don't know if arrangements like that were more common then than now. Personally, I would think Anne would have found it rather difficult.
As for Edward IV, he was rumoured to have had 5 illegitimate children, who are listed on his Wikipedia page (although there may have been 2 Arthurs). He didn't give formal recognition to any of them, but some did receive unusual privileges such as titles and good marriages. There doesn't seem to have been a standard procedure for recognizing bastard offspring. Some people like Richard acknowledged them publicly in formal documents, others kept it private and gave a few benefits, whereas others ignored them. Perkin may have been another illegitimate child of Edward, but Richard, Clarence and Margaret are also possibilities. (Imho, Margaret is the prime suspect if Perkin was not Richard of Shrewsbury.)
Nico
On Thursday, 22 June 2017, 22:15, romanenemo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com< mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ?
What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?
Re: John and Katherine
That may be what happened in the other instance I mentioned, too which may not have been authored by you, of course.
Do what you can to catch it, and I will understand danged autocorrect!! =
TTFN ,
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Karen O karenoder4@... []<mailto:>
Sent: July 3, 2017 2:15 PM
To: <mailto:>
Subject: RE: John and Katherine
I typed it correctly, but my phone corrects my spelling and I did not catch it Sorry.
On Jul 3, 2017 10:34 AM, "Johanne Tournier jltournier60@...<mailto:jltournier60@...> []" <<mailto:>> wrote:
Hi, Karen
Maybe I'm being picky, but do you mean JA-H (John Ashdown-Hill), rather than JOSH? You are not the first person that I have noticed making typos when typing the abbreviations for people we're talking about, and I find it makes it even more tricky to follow the discussion than it ordinarily it is. Someone else typed the wrong initials for one of our period players I forget which one just now. But please take pity on my ancient senior cognition and be careful when you are abbreviating either that, or write the name out, in which case you can get one or two of the letters wrong and still be understandable. =
Thank you!
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...> []<mailto:<mailto:>>
Sent: July 3, 2017 8:29 AM
To: <mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Yes. Private life. JOSH contends that Edward was attached to several women in his life but was not a "wanderer". He regards this as maligning. He also really believes he had a gay fling.
On Jul 3, 2017 7:06 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:nico11238@...><mailto:nico11238@...<mailto:nico11238@...>> []" <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>> wrote:
Hi Cassandra,
Which JA-H book is that in? I would like to read more about that. Is it The Private Life of Edward IV?
Btw, I do astrology too, but recently it has been a controversial subject on the forum. I think we left it that anything astrological has to posted in the Files section.
Nico
On Saturday, 1 July 2017, 17:06:56 GMT+1, Cassandra Masters cmasters1335@...<mailto:cmasters1335@...><mailto:cmasters1335@...<mailto:cmasters1335@...>> [] <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>> wrote:
JAH suggests that during the second exile Richard and or Edward took on one of the women of the household they were staying in as a mistress. Nice and convenient eh? Perkin was either Edward's or Richard's son.
Buy a full, paid reading ($20) Use Paypal, a free money transfer service. If you are not satisfied with your reading, I do refund. Psychic astrology or Past life reading $50. If you like your reading please write a review http://local.yahoo.com/info-42700763-psychicworlds-mansfield;_ylt=Auxg16ObD9tFvEBTHKseQMqHNcIF;_ylv=3?csz=Mansfield%2C+OH,
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 4:36 AM, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@...<mailto:hjnatdat@...><mailto:hjnatdat@...<mailto:hjnatdat@...>> []" <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>> wrote:
Interesting Nico- I didn't know all this. H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:nico11238@...><mailto:nico11238@...<mailto:nico11238@...>> []" <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>>
To: "<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>" <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>>
Sent: Saturday, 24 June 2017, 14:53
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Louis did make that allegation when Margaret's marriage to Charles the Bold was being negotiated, as he was desperate to stop the negotiations for political reasons and nothing has ever been found that would substantiate this rumour. However it was a strong and defamatory accusation to make if it was completely unfounded. Also, I believe there was a clause in the marriage dispensation that mentioned affinity, which shouldn't have been necessary if neither Margaret nor Charles had been in a relationship with one the other's relatives. It could have just been a legal clause to cover everything.
There were also rumours that Perkin was the illegitimate son of Margaret and the Bishop of Cambrai. Margaret and Charles did not have a particularly happy marriage, and he was away a lot. John Ashdown-Hill raised the possibility that he may have been gay, and that could be a possibility, because he didn't seem to make much effort to be a good husband to Margaret. Whatever the reason, Margaret may have been lonely and found comfort with someone else. If she did have an illegitimate son before her marriage, he would be a bit old to be Perkin, but there was an episode in early 1473, where Margaret went into seclusion at a convent. There was also the ambassador who claimed that Maximilian had told him that Perkin was Margaret's son. She was certainly close to Perkin, and there was an intimacy to their relationship that went way beyond what you would expect of a hired imposter. The father may have been the Bishop of Cambrai, who had been Margaret's confessor, but it could have been someone else. Incidentally, in 1472 the composer Gaspar van Weerbeke was resident at the Burgundian Court, and Margaret was herself musically orientated. It is difficult to find out much information on Gaspar van Weerbeke, but the name is the Flemish spelling of Werbeque. He was also from Oudenaarde, where Jean de Werbeque originally came from and was around the same age. Van Weerbeke was said to have been illegitimate, but chances are that he was related to Jean de Werbeque in some way and knew him. Could an illegitimate son of Margaret and the court composer have been fostered out to his father's relatives with assistance from the Bishop of Cambrai?
Nico
On Friday, 23 June 2017, 16:46, "Karen cmasters1335@...<mailto:cmasters1335@...><mailto:cmasters1335@...<mailto:cmasters1335@...>> []" <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>> wrote:
Didn't Louis of France accuse Margaret of being an unchaste bride and bearing a bastard?
On Jun 23, 2017 8:30 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:nico11238@...><mailto:nico11238@...<mailto:nico11238@...>> []" <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>> wrote:
We had a recent thread speculating about John and Katherine, but still they are mostly a mystery, and there are no records of them before Richard became King. John was knighted and was made Captain of Calais, while Katherine was married to William Herbert, but died sometime between Bosworth and Elizabeth's coronation. John was awarded an annuity after Bosworth, but his fate afterwards is unknown. (The passage in Buck that Henry had him 'made away' is confused and not supported by contemporary evidence; he could also have been the John Gloucester of the Calais staple that was given a pardon in 1504.) That is more or less all we know about them for certain. Their mother(s) isn't known either (see the thread for the debate about that), and the story about them growing up at Middleham is from novels like The Sunne in Splendour, although I don't know if arrangements like that were more common then than now. Personally, I would think Anne would have found it rather difficult.
As for Edward IV, he was rumoured to have had 5 illegitimate children, who are listed on his Wikipedia page (although there may have been 2 Arthurs). He didn't give formal recognition to any of them, but some did receive unusual privileges such as titles and good marriages. There doesn't seem to have been a standard procedure for recognizing bastard offspring. Some people like Richard acknowledged them publicly in formal documents, others kept it private and gave a few benefits, whereas others ignored them. Perkin may have been another illegitimate child of Edward, but Richard, Clarence and Margaret are also possibilities. (Imho, Margaret is the prime suspect if Perkin was not Richard of Shrewsbury.)
Nico
On Thursday, 22 June 2017, 22:15, romanenemo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com<mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com><mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com<mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com>>> wrote:
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ?
What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?
Re: John and Katherine
On 3 Jul 2017, at 19:15, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <> wrote:
I typed it correctly, but my phone corrects my spelling and I did not catch it Sorry.
On Jul 3, 2017 10:34 AM, "Johanne Tournier jltournier60@... []" <> wrote:
Hi, Karen
Maybe I'm being picky, but do you mean JA-H (John Ashdown-Hill), rather than JOSH? You are not the first person that I have noticed making typos when typing the abbreviations for people we're talking about, and I find it makes it even more tricky to follow the discussion than it ordinarily it is. Someone else typed the wrong initials for one of our period players I forget which one just now. But please take pity on my ancient senior cognition and be careful when you are abbreviating either that, or write the name out, in which case you can get one or two of the letters wrong and still be understandable. =
Thank you!
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Karen O karenoder4@... []< mailto:@ yahoogroups.com>
Sent: July 3, 2017 8:29 AM
To: @ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Yes. Private life. JOSH contends that Edward was attached to several women in his life but was not a "wanderer". He regards this as maligning. He also really believes he had a gay fling.
On Jul 3, 2017 7:06 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:n ico11238@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
Hi Cassandra,
Which JA-H book is that in? I would like to read more about that. Is it The Private Life of Edward IV?
Btw, I do astrology too, but recently it has been a controversial subject on the forum. I think we left it that anything astrological has to posted in the Files section.
Nico
On Saturday, 1 July 2017, 17:06:56 GMT+1, Cassandra Masters cmasters1335@...<mailto: cmasters1335@...> [] <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
JAH suggests that during the second exile Richard and or Edward took on one of the women of the household they were staying in as a mistress. Nice and convenient eh? Perkin was either Edward's or Richard's son.
Buy a full, paid reading ($20) Use Paypal, a free money transfer service. If you are not satisfied with your reading, I do refund. Psychic astrology or Past life reading $50. If you like your reading please write a review http://local.yahoo.com/info- 42700763-psychicworlds- mansfield;_ylt= Auxg16ObD9tFvEBTHKseQMqHNcIF;_ ylv=3?csz=Mansfield%2C+OH,
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 4:36 AM, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@...<mailto:hjna tdat@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
Interesting Nico- I didn't know all this. H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:n ico11238@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>>
To: "@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>>
Sent: Saturday, 24 June 2017, 14:53
Subject: Re: John and Katherine
Louis did make that allegation when Margaret's marriage to Charles the Bold was being negotiated, as he was desperate to stop the negotiations for political reasons and nothing has ever been found that would substantiate this rumour. However it was a strong and defamatory accusation to make if it was completely unfounded. Also, I believe there was a clause in the marriage dispensation that mentioned affinity, which shouldn't have been necessary if neither Margaret nor Charles had been in a relationship with one the other's relatives. It could have just been a legal clause to cover everything.
There were also rumours that Perkin was the illegitimate son of Margaret and the Bishop of Cambrai. Margaret and Charles did not have a particularly happy marriage, and he was away a lot. John Ashdown-Hill raised the possibility that he may have been gay, and that could be a possibility, because he didn't seem to make much effort to be a good husband to Margaret. Whatever the reason, Margaret may have been lonely and found comfort with someone else. If she did have an illegitimate son before her marriage, he would be a bit old to be Perkin, but there was an episode in early 1473, where Margaret went into seclusion at a convent. There was also the ambassador who claimed that Maximilian had told him that Perkin was Margaret's son. She was certainly close to Perkin, and there was an intimacy to their relationship that went way beyond what you would expect of a hired imposter. The father may have been the Bishop of Cambrai, who had been Margaret's confessor, but it could have been someone else. Incidentally, in 1472 the composer Gaspar van Weerbeke was resident at the Burgundian Court, and Margaret was herself musically orientated. It is difficult to find out much information on Gaspar van Weerbeke, but the name is the Flemish spelling of Werbeque. He was also from Oudenaarde, where Jean de Werbeque originally came from and was around the same age. Van Weerbeke was said to have been illegitimate, but chances are that he was related to Jean de Werbeque in some way and knew him. Could an illegitimate son of Margaret and the court composer have been fostered out to his father's relatives with assistance from the Bishop of Cambrai?
Nico
On Friday, 23 June 2017, 16:46, "Karen cmasters1335@...<mailto: cmasters1335@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
Didn't Louis of France accuse Margaret of being an unchaste bride and bearing a bastard?
On Jun 23, 2017 8:30 AM, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@...<mailto:n ico11238@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
We had a recent thread speculating about John and Katherine, but still they are mostly a mystery, and there are no records of them before Richard became King. John was knighted and was made Captain of Calais, while Katherine was married to William Herbert, but died sometime between Bosworth and Elizabeth's coronation. John was awarded an annuity after Bosworth, but his fate afterwards is unknown. (The passage in Buck that Henry had him 'made away' is confused and not supported by contemporary evidence; he could also have been the John Gloucester of the Calais staple that was given a pardon in 1504.) That is more or less all we know about them for certain. Their mother(s) isn't known either (see the thread for the debate about that), and the story about them growing up at Middleham is from novels like The Sunne in Splendour, although I don't know if arrangements like that were more common then than now. Personally, I would think Anne would have found it rather difficult.
As for Edward IV, he was rumoured to have had 5 illegitimate children, who are listed on his Wikipedia page (although there may have been 2 Arthurs). He didn't give formal recognition to any of them, but some did receive unusual privileges such as titles and good marriages. There doesn't seem to have been a standard procedure for recognizing bastard offspring. Some people like Richard acknowledged them publicly in formal documents, others kept it private and gave a few benefits, whereas others ignored them. Perkin may have been another illegitimate child of Edward, but Richard, Clarence and Margaret are also possibilities. (Imho, Margaret is the prime suspect if Perkin was not Richard of Shrewsbury.)
Nico
On Thursday, 22 June 2017, 22:15, romanenemo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com< mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
It seems that Richard acknowledged his two illegitimate children, John and Katherine, quite early in their lives.Was it a current custom in that time ? In 'the Sunne in Splendour' (I think) they were even raised at Middleham with young Edward. Is it substantiated by any source ?
What about his brother Edward ? A known womanizer, he must have had some of his own ? Do we know anything about them ?