Richard III Research and Discussion Archive

  Bertram Fields States in his book "Royal Blood' that Richard and Anne had another son who died. No proof though.  Now, the rules of the time, which I.looked up, proscribed marital or other sexual relations 260 days a year. Now I know as Duke and King he travelled a lot. Could Anne's infertility have been partly just not enough opportunity?   Did they ignore the rules? They would have to. Did struggling couples get a dispensation? I know all about Richard the pious, but really could they have expected Anne to conceive on such a schedule?

Karen wrote: Bertram Fields States in his book "Royal Blood' that Richard and Anne had another son who died. No proof though. Now, the rules of the time, which I.looked up, proscribed marital or other sexual relations 260 days a year. Now I know as Duke and King he travelled a lot. Could Anne's infertility have been partly just not enough opportunity? Did they ignore the rules? They would have to. Did struggling couples get a dispensation? I know all about Richard the pious, but really could they have expected Anne to conceive on such a schedule? Doug here: If my memory is correct, couples could get dispensations and there also were dispensations available for those in ill-health. We don't have any records that I know of that suggests Anne wasn't in perfect health, but neither do we have any records saying she wasn't  at least, not until her fatal illness in early 1485. I'm only surmising, but there is the possibility that Anne encountered some sort of difficulty in giving birth to Edward of Middleham that may have made it difficult for her carry another child to term, but I really don't know. Doug
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Ive always thought of Richard and Anne being a couple in the same sense as Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine were in their early years. Where he went she went too. I think the way that in 1483 arrangements to bring his duchess to London were so openly discussed and remarked upon show it was unusual that separate arrangements were needed. So I think opportunity was always there. But the nature of her death shows she had a weakness that may have prevented her conceiving more. As Doug says we don't know how many times she did conceive. She may well have been unable to carry a child to term after the birth of Edward, we just don't know, as that wasn't the sort of thing shared with anybody outside the tight inner circle. And Edward's birth may have been difficult. Again we don't know. Paul

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On 6 May 2017, at 18:15, 'Doug Stamate' destama@... [] <> wrote:

Karen wrote: Bertram Fields States in his book "Royal Blood' that Richard and Anne had another son who died. No proof though. Now, the rules of the time, which I.looked up, proscribed marital or other sexual relations 260 days a year. Now I know as Duke and King he travelled a lot. Could Anne's infertility have been partly just not enough opportunity? Did they ignore the rules? They would have to. Did struggling couples get a dispensation? I know all about Richard the pious, but really could they have expected Anne to conceive on such a schedule? Doug here: If my memory is correct, couples could get dispensations and there also were dispensations available for those in ill-health. We don't have any records that I know of that suggests Anne wasn't in perfect health, but neither do we have any records saying she wasn't  at least, not until her fatal illness in early 1485. I'm only surmising, but there is the possibility that Anne encountered some sort of difficulty in giving birth to Edward of Middleham that may have made it difficult for her carry another child to term, but I really don't know. Doug
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  I never heard of the remarks on separate travel arrangements. What were they?
On May 6, 2017 3:55 PM, "Paul Trevor Bale bale.paul-trevor@... []" <> wrote:
 

Ive always thought of Richard and Anne being a couple in the same sense as Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine were in their early years. Where he went she went too. I think the way that in 1483 arrangements to bring his duchess to London were so openly discussed and remarked upon show it was unusual that separate arrangements were needed. So I think opportunity was always there. But the nature of her death shows she had a weakness that may have prevented her conceiving more. As Doug says we don't know how many times she did conceive. She may well have been unable to carry a child to term after the birth of Edward, we just don't know, as that wasn't the sort of thing shared with anybody outside the tight inner circle. And Edward's birth may have been difficult. Again we don't know. Paul

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On 6 May 2017, at 18:15, 'Doug Stamate' destama@... [] <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

      Karen wrote: Bertram Fields States in his book "Royal Blood' that Richard and Anne had another son who died. No proof though.   Now, the rules of the time, which I.looked up, proscribed marital or other sexual relations 260 days a year. Now I know as Duke and King he travelled a lot. Could Anne's infertility have been partly just not enough opportunity?    Did they ignore the rules? They would have to. Did struggling couples get a dispensation? I know all about Richard the pious, but really could they have expected Anne to conceive on such a schedule?   Doug here: If my memory is correct, couples could get dispensations and there also were dispensations available for those in ill-health. We don't have any records that I know of that suggests Anne wasn't in perfect health, but neither do we have any records saying she wasn't  at least, not until her fatal illness in early 1485. I'm only surmising, but there is the possibility that Anne encountered some sort of difficulty in giving birth to Edward of Middleham that may have made it difficult for her carry another child to term, but I really don't know. Doug  
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Do you mean for 1483? Other than that there is little known. That is when he "booked" Crosby Place and arranged for Anne to come south with their son. I think that's in Croyland and London Chronicle and Stoner letters. Can't be sure off top of head but will check later. Am in France 1791 mode at present! Paul

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On 7 May 2017, at 05:41, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <> wrote:

I never heard of the remarks on separate travel arrangements. What were they?
On May 6, 2017 3:55 PM, "Paul Trevor Bale bale.paul-trevor@... []" <> wrote:

Ive always thought of Richard and Anne being a couple in the same sense as Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine were in their early years. Where he went she went too. I think the way that in 1483 arrangements to bring his duchess to London were so openly discussed and remarked upon show it was unusual that separate arrangements were needed. So I think opportunity was always there. But the nature of her death shows she had a weakness that may have prevented her conceiving more. As Doug says we don't know how many times she did conceive. She may well have been unable to carry a child to term after the birth of Edward, we just don't know, as that wasn't the sort of thing shared with anybody outside the tight inner circle. And Edward's birth may have been difficult. Again we don't know. Paul

Sent from my iPad
On 6 May 2017, at 18:15, 'Doug Stamate' destama@... [] <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Karen wrote: Bertram Fields States in his book "Royal Blood' that Richard and Anne had another son who died. No proof though. Now, the rules of the time, which I.looked up, proscribed marital or other sexual relations 260 days a year. Now I know as Duke and King he travelled a lot. Could Anne's infertility have been partly just not enough opportunity? Did they ignore the rules? They would have to. Did struggling couples get a dispensation? I know all about Richard the pious, but really could they have expected Anne to conceive on such a schedule? Doug here: If my memory is correct, couples could get dispensations and there also were dispensations available for those in ill-health. We don't have any records that I know of that suggests Anne wasn't in perfect health, but neither do we have any records saying she wasn't  at least, not until her fatal illness in early 1485. I'm only surmising, but there is the possibility that Anne encountered some sort of difficulty in giving birth to Edward of Middleham that may have made it difficult for her carry another child to term, but I really don't know. Doug
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Fields’ footnotes are all available online, as his publisher omitted them:

https://murreyandblue.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/royal-blood-by-bertram-fields/

From: [mailto: ]
Sent: 05 May 2017 14:54
To:
Subject: [Richard III Society Forum] Medieval infertility

Bertram Fields States in his book "Royal Blood' that Richard and Anne had another son who died. No proof though.

Now, the rules of the time, which I.looked up, proscribed marital or other sexual relations 260 days a year. Now I know as Duke and King he travelled a lot. Could Anne's infertility have been partly just not enough opportunity?

Did they ignore the rules? They would have to. Did struggling couples get a dispensation? I know all about Richard the pious, but really could they have expected Anne to conceive on such a schedule?

Thanks for the link, Stephen. I recently read the book, and his footnotes were something I wished had been there.
Gilda


On May 7, 2017, at 12:59 PM, 'Stephen' stephenmlark@... [] <> wrote:


Fields' footnotes are all available online, as his publisher omitted them:https://murreyandblue.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/royal-blood-by-bertram-fields/ From: [mailto: ]
Sent: 05 May 2017 14:54
To:
Subject: Medieval infertility Bertram Fields States in his book "Royal Blood' that Richard and Anne had another son who died. No proof though. Now, the rules of the time, which I.looked up, proscribed marital or other sexual relations 260 days a year. Now I know as Duke and King he travelled a lot. Could Anne's infertility have been partly just not enough opportunity? Did they ignore the rules? They would have to. Did struggling couples get a dispensation? I know all about Richard the pious, but really could they have expected Anne to conceive on such a schedule?