Richard III Research and Discussion Archive

Home
Archive
Images
Groups

Margaret Pole

2017-04-18 20:37:39
b.eileen25

Has anyone read Margaret Pole Countess of Salisbury Loyalty LIneage and Leadership by Hazel Pierce? I'm about a third of the way through. I'm beginning to change my opinions on Margaret. Another exceeding strong woman..reminds me of MB in some ways. Happily married to Richard Pole, 'a very worthy gentleman' with a brood of children she was widowed at 31. She then after some travails, and after befriending Katherine of Aragon and daughter Mary, reached the zenith of her life..rich, living in numerous luxury homes, children successful..etc., etc. What could go possible wrong? I think she seriously misjudged Henry Vlll. Perhaps she felt honour bound after the judicial murder of her brother to pursue matters relating to property etc. but seriously treading in Henry's toes was very foolhardy, Going off in a tangent but why is the print so small in some books....?

Re: Margaret Pole

2017-04-19 08:12:15
b.eileen25
Read more of this excellent book last night. One of those books that is hard to put down. So far..Margaret continues to push Henry's buttons especially regarding Princess Mary. Aids and abets Mary in her refusal to return her jewels..cannot make up my mind as to whether Margararet is courageous or foolishly obstinate..maybe a bit of both. Her life is starting to implode and she seems to have suffered a mini breakdown after being parted from Mary. Montague, her son, and his son, are put in the Tower. Geoffrey the other son also under arrest unravels at the seams. He seems to be a chip of the old block, in some ways like his grandfather, flawed but still likeable but perhaps lacking Clarences' courage. Montague executed, Geoffrey makes an attempt on his own life with a cushion... Margaret questioned for several days has recovered her courage and remains stoic and defiant "Wee may call hyr rather a strong and custaunt man than a woman.." opined one of those sent to interrogate her.. oh my goodness..what a story and what a tragedy.

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret Pole

2017-04-19 16:16:12
Doug Stamate

Eileen wrote:

Has anyone read Margaret Pole Countess of Salisbury Loyalty LIneage and Leadership by Hazel Pierce? I'm about a third of the way through. I'm beginning to change my opinions on Margaret. Another exceeding strong woman..reminds me of MB in some ways. Happily married to Richard Pole, 'a very worthy gentleman' with a brood of children she was widowed at 31. She then after some travails, and after befriending Katherine of Aragon and daughter Mary, reached the zenith of her life..rich, living in numerous luxury homes, children successful..etc., etc. What could go possible wrong? I think she seriously misjudged Henry Vlll. Perhaps she felt honour bound after the judicial murder of her brother to pursue matters relating to property etc. but seriously treading in Henry's toes was very foolhardy, Going off in a tangent but why is the print so small in some books....?

Doug here:

Sounds like another book to put on reading list!

I imagine the small print is in order to save money on printing costs? Especially if the subject matter is likely to appeal only to a small-ish audience?

Doug


--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret Pole

2017-04-19 17:03:59
b.eileen25
I got a used copy from Ebay at a reasonable price Doug. But yes definitely a good read.

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-20 15:53:01
Doug Stamate
Eileen wrote: I got a used copy from Ebay at a reasonable price Doug. But yes definitely a good read. Doug here: I haven't used Ebay much, but it appears I'm going to have to. Thanks again for the suggestions (book and Ebay), Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-20 16:09:13
b.eileen25
I see the answer back from the society is a no sadly. Well onwards and upwards I suppose. My worry is how will new members be attracted now the direct link from the society website will be going?

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-20 16:14:24
b.eileen25
Doug your welcome. Booksearch is always a good way to go as well if you didn't know of it already, Sometimes you can get books cheaper than even Amazon..the problem now being with Amazon is you no longer get free postage unless you spend £20.
Also with eBay you can make an offer if it's secondhand. That is how I got my Coronation of RIchard lll the Extant Documents, I could never have afforded it otherwise..

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-20 16:17:44
Pamela Bain
Try Amazon used books, and even Etsy.com. Rizzoli books are wonderful, and of course, in most cities there are used book stores. Henry and I spent hours in London and Paris haunting book stores, and somewhere in Britain is a small town packed with books, the name escapes me.
On Apr 20, 2017, at 9:53 AM, 'Doug Stamate' destama@... [] <> wrote:

Eileen wrote: I got a used copy from Ebay at a reasonable price Doug. But yes definitely a good read. Doug here: I haven't used Ebay much, but it appears I'm going to have to. Thanks again for the suggestions (book and Ebay), Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-20 16:19:07
A J Hibbard
I wonder if the Society would allow an announcement on its Facebook page? with an occasional reminder. Or failing that, annoucements on some of the other Facebook pages devoted to Richard III.

A J

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 10:09 AM, cherryripe.eileenb@... [] <> wrote:
 

I see the answer back from the society is a no sadly.  Well onwards and upwards I suppose.  My worry is how will new members be attracted now the direct link from the society website will be going?  


Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-20 16:28:44
Pamela Bain
I wonder if membership in the Society if off, and they view a free source of information as an attempt to subvert membership?
On Apr 20, 2017, at 10:19 AM, A J Hibbard ajhibbard@... [] <> wrote:

I wonder if the Society would allow an announcement on its Facebook page? with an occasional reminder. Or failing that, annoucements on some of the other Facebook pages devoted to Richard III.

A J

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 10:09 AM, cherryripe.eileenb@... [] <> wrote:

I see the answer back from the society is a no sadly. Well onwards and upwards I suppose. My worry is how will new members be attracted now the direct link from the society website will be going?


Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-20 16:51:02
RONALD COOKSLEY
Perhaps the 'various social media channels' as mentioned in the Statement can refer anyone who happens upon them? Also, Branches and Groups could refer their members, or will the EC forbid them on pain of excommunication?


On Thursday, 20 April 2017, 16:09, "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <> wrote:


I see the answer back from the society is a no sadly. Well onwards and upwards I suppose. My worry is how will new members be attracted now the direct link from the society website will be going?

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Fo

2017-04-20 16:56:05
Doug Stamate
Eileen wrote: I see the answer back from the society is a no sadly. Well onwards and upwards I suppose. My worry is how will new members be attracted now the direct link from the society website will be going? Doug here: I can see the Society also employing Facebook and Twitter, but why they want to cut ties with the Forum I have no idea! Unless those two media are very heavily monitored, they'll get even more side-tracked than we have ever have! Perhaps next, what with it being such and old-fashioned method, they'll no longer offer books for sale from the Society's shop? Doug Who finds it mystifying and wonders if what we're seeing isn't due to someone's bruised ego?
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Fo

2017-04-20 16:59:29
Doug Stamate
Eileen wrote: Doug your welcome. Booksearch is always a good way to go as well if you didn't know of it already, Sometimes you can get books cheaper than even Amazon..the problem now being with Amazon is you no longer get free postage unless you spend £20. Also with eBay you can make an offer if it's secondhand. That is how I got my Coronation of RIchard lll the Extant Documents, I could never have afforded it otherwise. Doug here: I hadn't heard of Booksearch, so thank you for that! I haven't used either Amazon or Ebay much but, what with the cost of some of the volumes I want that's likely to change! Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Fo

2017-04-20 17:25:22
b.eileen25
Apologies Doug,,should have wrote BookFinder.com

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Fo

2017-04-20 17:37:32
Bale Paul-trevor
Somebody sold their Coronation ? Could never sell mine !
Paul

Envoyé depuis mon Sony Xperia(TM) XA Ultra d'Orange

---- 'Doug Stamate' destama@... [] wrote ----

Eileen wrote: Doug your welcome. Booksearch is always a good way to go as well if you didn't know of it already, Sometimes you can get books cheaper than even Amazon..the problem now being with Amazon is you no longer get free postage unless you spend £20. Also with eBay you can make an offer if it's secondhand. That is how I got my Coronation of RIchard lll the Extant Documents, I could never have afforded it otherwise. Doug here: I hadn't heard of Booksearch, so thank you for that! I haven't used either Amazon or Ebay much but, what with the cost of some of the volumes I want that's likely to change! Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Fo

2017-04-20 17:43:57
b.eileen25
Got a personal message inside Paul..from the authors to someone who helped them with their research...

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Fo

2017-04-20 17:48:23
Stephen

Amazon uk have a minimum postage-free order of £10 for books and £20 for other things J

From: [mailto: ]
Sent: 20 April 2017 17:44
To:
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole

Got a personal message inside Paul..from the authors to someone who helped them with their research...

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Fo

2017-04-20 18:32:36
Paul Trevor Bale
Prime is free once you've paid the annual £79! In France it isn't as expensive, and they have a weird idea of next day posting. As for "fast" something I ordered yesterday with 'fast delivery' it is being delivered between May 10 and 20th!Paul

Envoyé de mon iPad
Le 20 avr. 2017 à 18:48, 'Stephen' stephenmlark@... [] <> a écrit :

Amazon uk have a minimum postage-free order of £10 for books and £20 for other things J

From: [mailto: ]
Sent: 20 April 2017 17:44
To:
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole

Got a personal message inside Paul..from the authors to someone who helped them with their research...

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Fo

2017-04-20 18:54:15
b.eileen25
Most of the second hand books on amazon are amazon traders and they nearly always charge postage but I have managed to get some lovely books in very good condition including some from the Pevsner The Buildings of England series, one for every county, including the Cotswolds. Some of them looked like they have never been read. unfortunately I don't have the one I need now,,Herefordshire...can you Adam and Eve it?

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-21 08:25:46
Nance Crawford
Pamela wrote: "Henry and I spent hours in London and Paris haunting book stores, and somewhere in Britain is a small town packed with books, the name escapes me." Is it Hay-on-Wye, Wales? Their book festival - Hay-on-Wye.co.uk - is May 25 - 4 June, this year. I just Googled and found some of the most amazing photos of books imaginable. Sounds like Heaven - a tour of the Marches followed by a burial in books.
www.NanceCrawford.com
KING'S GAMES: The Commentaries
http://amzn.to/1VvKiHV

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-21 08:44:42
Sandra Wilson
Hay on Wye is book shops from one end to the other, so worth visiting any time of the year, not just during the festival. A huge parking area too. My favourite shop is in the old cinema, which is simply crammed with shelf after shelf after shelf. Bliss. http://www.haycinemabookshop.co.uk/ From: mailto: Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 8:25 AM To: Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole

Pamela wrote: "Henry and I spent hours in London and Paris haunting book stores, and somewhere in Britain is a small town packed with books, the name escapes me." Is it Hay-on-Wye, Wales? Their book festival - Hay-on-Wye.co.uk - is May 25 - 4 June, this year. I just Googled and found some of the most amazing photos of books imaginable. Sounds like Heaven - a tour of the Marches followed by a burial in books.
www.NanceCrawford.com
KING'S GAMES: The Commentaries
http://amzn.to/1VvKiHV

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-21 11:21:43
ricard1an
Also a cafe that make the most wonderful meringues! I can't remember the name but our Branch Chairman always used to book it for afternoon tea whenever we visited Hay on Wye.
Mary

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-21 14:51:13
Pamela Bain

That is it!!! Love the description……

From: [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 2:26 AM
To:
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole

Pamela wrote: "Henry and I spent hours in London and Paris haunting book stores, and somewhere in Britain is a small town packed with books, the name escapes me."

Is it Hay-on-Wye, Wales? Their book festival - Hay-on-Wye.co.uk - is May 25 - 4 June, this year. I just Googled and found some of the most amazing photos of books imaginable. Sounds like Heaven - a tour of the Marches followed by a burial in books.


www.NanceCrawford.com
KING'S GAMES: The Commentaries
http://amzn.to/1VvKiHV

OT - Hay-on-Wye (was RE: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Soci

2017-04-21 15:30:42
Johanne Tournier
Hi, All ý

Have enjoyed reading the brief discussion about Hay-on-Wye. Yýall might be interested to know that back in 1973, when I was attending a Summer School in Librarianship in Aberystwyth, Wales, we were able to visit Hay-on-Wye as one of our day trips that we took during the course. At the time, there were five little bookshops scattered through the town (which was charming, btw), and all of them were owned by Richard Booth, who I believe was an American ex-pat. As Mr. Booth was a personal friend of Dr. Harold Lancour, the Dean Emeritus at Pittsburgh and founder of the Library School in Aberystwyth and Director of the Summer School, we were invited to have lunch at Mr. Boothýs home, in addition to exploring the bookstores. It was heavenly even then ý although I take it that it has expanded substantially since then. My favourite store was the one that specialized in vintage collectible and first edition books ý in particular, they had a number of first editions featuring Arthur Rackham illustrations, one of my favourite fantasy illustrators, which I drooled over. Unfortunately my student budget didnýt allow me to purchase any of those books, which as I recall cost maybe 50-75 pounds at the time. <sniff>

I have such wonderful memories of that trip, and the whole Summer, I hope someday to be able to return to that peaceful and pastoral part of England and Wales!

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
Email ý jltournier60@...



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Pamela Bain pbain@... []<mailto:>
Sent: April 21, 2017 10:51 AM
To: <mailto:>
Subject: RE: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole


That is it!!! Love the descriptionýý


From: [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 2:26 AM
To:
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole



Pamela wrote: "Henry and I spent hours in London and Paris haunting book stores, and somewhere in Britain is a small town packed with books, the name escapes me."

Is it Hay-on-Wye, Wales? Their book festival - Hay-on-Wye.co.uk - is May 25 - 4 June, this year. I just Googled and found some of the most amazing photos of books imaginable. Sounds like Heaven - a tour of the Marches followed by a burial in books.

www.NanceCrawford.com<http://www.NanceCrawford.com>
KING'S GAMES: The Commentaries
http://amzn.to/1VvKiHV







Re: OT - Hay-on-Wye (was RE: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III

2017-04-21 17:21:44
Pamela Bain
Oh my, that sounds absolutely heavenly. Two of my sweet friends, and I, when we were single, considered opening a used book emporium in New Orleans, where we were all reared. Our catchy name, "Three Boards and Some Old Books". It never happened, but that is still in the back of my mind!


-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 9:31 AM
To:
Subject: OT - Hay-on-Wye (was RE: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole)

Hi, All -

Have enjoyed reading the brief discussion about Hay-on-Wye. Y'all might be interested to know that back in 1973, when I was attending a Summer School in Librarianship in Aberystwyth, Wales, we were able to visit Hay-on-Wye as one of our day trips that we took during the course. At the time, there were five little bookshops scattered through the town (which was charming, btw), and all of them were owned by Richard Booth, who I believe was an American ex-pat. As Mr. Booth was a personal friend of Dr. Harold Lancour, the Dean Emeritus at Pittsburgh and founder of the Library School in Aberystwyth and Director of the Summer School, we were invited to have lunch at Mr. Booth's home, in addition to exploring the bookstores. It was heavenly even then - although I take it that it has expanded substantially since then. My favourite store was the one that specialized in vintage collectible and first edition books - in particular, they had a number of first editions featuring Arthur Rackham illustrations, one of my favourite fantasy illustrators, which I drooled over. Unfortunately my student budget didn't allow me to purchase any of those books, which as I recall cost maybe 50-75 pounds at the time. <sniff>

I have such wonderful memories of that trip, and the whole Summer, I hope someday to be able to return to that peaceful and pastoral part of England and Wales!

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Pamela Bain pbain@... []<mailto:>
Sent: April 21, 2017 10:51 AM
To: <mailto:>
Subject: RE: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole


That is it!!! Love the description......


From: [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 2:26 AM
To:
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole



Pamela wrote: "Henry and I spent hours in London and Paris haunting book stores, and somewhere in Britain is a small town packed with books, the name escapes me."

Is it Hay-on-Wye, Wales? Their book festival - Hay-on-Wye.co.uk - is May 25 - 4 June, this year. I just Googled and found some of the most amazing photos of books imaginable. Sounds like Heaven - a tour of the Marches followed by a burial in books.

www.NanceCrawford.com<http://www.NanceCrawford.com>
KING'S GAMES: The Commentaries
http://amzn.to/1VvKiHV











------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-22 09:38:13
Hilary Jones
This kind of got lost in all the rest. Do we know how long we've got left and what will happen? H

From: "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 20 April 2017, 16:09
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole

I see the answer back from the society is a no sadly. Well onwards and upwards I suppose. My worry is how will new members be attracted now the direct link from the society website will be going?

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-22 10:28:29
b.eileen25
HIlary...I understand it is 1st May...it's very sad isn't it? I hope there is a plan b...shall we just continue postIng..forum will need to be renamed? Will we need a new link? Hopefully Neil will let us know.

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-22 10:55:50
Hilary Jones
Not much time is it? Yes hopefully Neil will still wish to help? And there is the issue of the archive. Are you still out there, Neil? H

From: "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 22 April 2017, 10:28
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole

HIlary...I understand it is 1st May...it's very sad isn't it? I hope there is a plan b...shall we just continue postIng..forum will need to be renamed? Will we need a new link? Hopefully Neil will let us know.

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-22 12:55:37
Neil Trump
To all:
Just a quick note to say that I will put something out soon but the Forum will stay exactly as it is and there will not be any significant changes.
Regards,
Neil

Sent from my iPad
On 22 Apr 2017, at 10:28, cherryripe.eileenb@... [] <> wrote:

HIlary...I understand it is 1st May...it's very sad isn't it? I hope there is a plan b...shall we just continue postIng..forum will need to be renamed? Will we need a new link? Hopefully Neil will let us know.

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-22 13:48:15
ricard1an
Thank you Neil much appreciated.
Mary

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-22 14:48:10
b.eileen25
Thank you Neil

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-22 19:09:32
Jan Mulrenan
Thank you, Neil!Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 22 Apr 2017, at 12:55, Neil Trump neil.trump@... [] <> wrote:

To all:
Just a quick note to say that I will put something out soon but the Forum will stay exactly as it is and there will not be any significant changes.
Regards,
Neil

Sent from my iPad
On 22 Apr 2017, at 10:28, cherryripe.eileenb@... [] <> wrote:

HIlary...I understand it is 1st May...it's very sad isn't it? I hope there is a plan b...shall we just continue postIng..forum will need to be renamed? Will we need a new link? Hopefully Neil will let us know.

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-22 22:24:32
RONALD COOKSLEY
Thank you Neil We're all with you!

On Saturday, 22 April 2017, 19:09, "Jan Mulrenan janmulrenan@... []" <> wrote:


Thank you, Neil!Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 22 Apr 2017, at 12:55, Neil Trump neil.trump@... [] <> wrote:

To all:
Just a quick note to say that I will put something out soon but the Forum will stay exactly as it is and there will not be any significant changes.
Regards,
Neil

Sent from my iPad
On 22 Apr 2017, at 10:28, cherryripe.eileenb@... [] <> wrote:

HIlary...I understand it is 1st May...it's very sad isn't it? I hope there is a plan b...shall we just continue postIng..forum will need to be renamed? Will we need a new link? Hopefully Neil will let us know.

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Margaret P

2017-04-22 22:37:49
Hilary Jones
Indeed. What a relief! H

From: "RONALD COOKSLEY greyfox.cooksley@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Saturday, 22 April 2017, 22:24
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Margaret Pole

Thank you Neil We're all with you!

On Saturday, 22 April 2017, 19:09, "Jan Mulrenan janmulrenan@... []" <> wrote:


Thank you, Neil!Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 22 Apr 2017, at 12:55, Neil Trump neil.trump@... [] <> wrote:

To all:
Just a quick note to say that I will put something out soon but the Forum will stay exactly as it is and there will not be any significant changes.
Regards,
Neil

Sent from my iPad
On 22 Apr 2017, at 10:28, cherryripe.eileenb@... [] <> wrote:

HIlary...I understand it is 1st May...it's very sad isn't it? I hope there is a plan b...shall we just continue postIng..forum will need to be renamed? Will we need a new link? Hopefully Neil will let us know.