Spanish orincess

 After Anne's death Richard seem Ed about to marry a 30 something Portuguese princess who had been living as a nun. She was beautiful, and beatified after her death. Doesn't sound like a happy match for a healthy man in his thirties. Was Isabella the Spanish princess the famous Isabella the mad?

Juana la Loca is a completely different lady, a Spanish princess. Richard's intended bride was Joanna of Portugal who had actually ruled her country at one point. When her younger brother came of age she went to live in a convent, but returned to court on a number of occasions. This was a woman who knew how to rule, the same age as Richard, with similar religious convictions. She had turned down a number of other royal suitors but found Richard acceptable. She would have been quite a match and a strong support for a king used to having an intelligent female at his side.
Paul

Envoyé de mon iPad
Le 8 avr. 2017 à 16:51, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <> a écrit :

After Anne's death Richard seem Ed about to marry a 30 something Portuguese princess who had been living as a nun. She was beautiful, and beatified after her death. Doesn't sound like a happy match for a healthy man in his thirties. Was Isabella the Spanish princess the famous Isabella the mad?

Well, I will allow you the feminist interpretation. I thought it was she was the senior Lancastrian link to provide him that shoring up for his reign. She died five years later so I think Richard would have been bereaved twice and starving herself as a nun could hardly have increased her fertility. I doubt seriously he gave much thought to her ability to "rule". He wanted sons. That was the job of a royal queen, fertility. I think it was a bad choice in that regard. What good was she if she was infertile. He had lots of able men to help him "rule".

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Paul Trevor Bale bale.paul-trevor@... [] <> wrote:
 

Juana la Loca is a completely different lady, a Spanish princess. Richard's intended bride was Joanna of Portugal who had actually ruled her country at one point. When her younger brother came of age she went to live in a convent, but returned to court on a number of occasions. This was a woman who knew how to rule, the same age as Richard, with similar religious convictions. She had turned down a number of other royal suitors but found Richard acceptable. She would have been quite a match and a strong support for a king used to having an intelligent female at his side.
Paul

Envoyé de mon iPad
Le 8 avr. 2017 à 16:51, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <@ yahoogroups.com> a écrit :

 

 After Anne's death Richard seem Ed about to marry a 30 something Portuguese princess who had been living as a nun. She was beautiful, and beatified after her death. Doesn't sound like a happy match for a healthy man in his thirties. Was Isabella the Spanish princess the famous Isabella the mad?

YOu are right. It was Juana La Loca. I stand corrected.

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Karen O <karenoder4@...> wrote:
Well, I will allow you the feminist interpretation. I thought it was she was the senior Lancastrian link to provide him that shoring up for his reign. She died five years later so I think Richard would have been bereaved twice and starving herself as a nun could hardly have increased her fertility. I doubt seriously he gave much thought to her ability to "rule". He wanted sons. That was the job of a royal queen, fertility. I think it was a bad choice in that regard. What good was she if she was infertile. He had lots of able men to help him "rule".

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Paul Trevor Bale bale.paul-trevor@... [] <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Juana la Loca is a completely different lady, a Spanish princess. Richard's intended bride was Joanna of Portugal who had actually ruled her country at one point. When her younger brother came of age she went to live in a convent, but returned to court on a number of occasions. This was a woman who knew how to rule, the same age as Richard, with similar religious convictions. She had turned down a number of other royal suitors but found Richard acceptable. She would have been quite a match and a strong support for a king used to having an intelligent female at his side.
Paul

Envoyé de mon iPad
Le 8 avr. 2017 à 16:51, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <@yahoog roups.com> a écrit :

 

 After Anne's death Richard seem Ed about to marry a 30 something Portuguese princess who had been living as a nun. She was beautiful, and beatified after her death. Doesn't sound like a happy match for a healthy man in his thirties. Was Isabella the Spanish princess the famous Isabella the mad?

That was a Portuguese princess, Joana.  She was the daughter of Afonso of Portugal, known as "El Africano".  Her brother was Joao, who became king of Portugal after the death of Afonso.  Joana was born in February 1452, so was about half a year older than Richard.  She was regent of Portugal when her father and brother were campaigning in Africa, and did had ambitions to become a nun, and had turned down a number of proposals.  She was NOT a nun in 1485, when Richard was negotiating with Portugal for a marriage between himself and Joana and between Manuel de Breja and Elizabeth of York.  Legend has it that Joana told her father and brother she dreamed Richard had died.  If Richard was alive, she said, she would marry him.  If he was not alive, her desire to go to Aveiro and become a nun should be honored.  Richard, of course, was killed that summer, and Joana retired as a nun to Aveiro, where she died in 1490.  She was beatified in the seventeenth century.
There was no connection in this negotiation with Castile or Aragon, the two main Christian kingdoms of Spanish crown.  However, fyi, Afonso's sister, another Joana, married the older half-brother of Isabel the Catholic.  This older half-brother, the horribly unfortunate Enrique of Castile, was known as Enrique the Impotent.  He and Joana were married several years when Joana took as a lover Beltran de la Cueva, a favorite of Enrique's.  Soon after this, she had a daughter, Juana.  This daughter was called "La Beltraneja" because no one knew if Enrique or Beltran was her true father.  Afonso of Portugal married la Beltraneja and championed her cause against Isabel the Catholic for the crown of Castile.  Isabel and Fernando defeated Afonso at the battle of Toro, and la Beltraneja ended up in a convent, where she died in 1530.
The "mad" queen you're probably thinking of was the second daughter of Isabel and Fernando, whose name was also Juana.  She was brilliant and unstable, but not necessarily mad, though she may have been driven so by her husband, Philip the Handsome (son of the emperor Maximilian); by Fernando after the death of Isabel and of Philip; and by Juana's own son, emperor Charles V, who could not rule in Castile as long as his mother was alive and considered stable enough to rule.  Isabel and Fernando did have a daughter named Isabel, who died young in childbirth.  Her little baby, Miguel, died before reaching the age of 3, and you can see his coffin in the Cathedral of Granada, along with the coffins of the Catholic Kings, and of Juana and Philip the Handsome.  Had little Miguel survived, he would have put a barrier against the tremendous reach of Charles V's inheritance, and the history of Europe and the Americas would have been very different.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <> wrote:
 

 After Anne's death Richard seem Ed about to marry a 30 something Portuguese princess who had been living as a nun. She was beautiful, and beatified after her death. Doesn't sound like a happy match for a healthy man in his thirties. Was Isabella the Spanish princess the famous Isabella the mad?

Very comprehensive and interesting information. Thank you
On Apr 8, 2017, at 1:43 PM, Maria Torres ejbronte@... [] <> wrote:

That was a Portuguese princess, Joana. She was the daughter of Afonso of Portugal, known as "El Africano". Her brother was Joao, who became king of Portugal after the death of Afonso. Joana was born in February 1452, so was about half a year older than Richard. She was regent of Portugal when her father and brother were campaigning in Africa, and did had ambitions to become a nun, and had turned down a number of proposals. She was NOT a nun in 1485, when Richard was negotiating with Portugal for a marriage between himself and Joana and between Manuel de Breja and Elizabeth of York. Legend has it that Joana told her father and brother she dreamed Richard had died. If Richard was alive, she said, she would marry him. If he was not alive, her desire to go to Aveiro and become a nun should be honored. Richard, of course, was killed that summer, and Joana retired as a nun to Aveiro, where she died in 1490. She was beatified in the seventeenth century.
There was no connection in this negotiation with Castile or Aragon, the two main Christian kingdoms of Spanish crown. However, fyi, Afonso's sister, another Joana, married the older half-brother of Isabel the Catholic. This older half-brother, the horribly unfortunate Enrique of Castile, was known as Enrique the Impotent. He and Joana were married several years when Joana took as a lover Beltran de la Cueva, a favorite of Enrique's. Soon after this, she had a daughter, Juana. This daughter was called "La Beltraneja" because no one knew if Enrique or Beltran was her true father. Afonso of Portugal married la Beltraneja and championed her cause against Isabel the Catholic for the crown of Castile. Isabel and Fernando defeated Afonso at the battle of Toro, and la Beltraneja ended up in a convent, where she died in 1530.
The "mad" queen you're probably thinking of was the second daughter of Isabel and Fernando, whose name was also Juana. She was brilliant and unstable, but not necessarily mad, though she may have been driven so by her husband, Philip the Handsome (son of the emperor Maximilian); by Fernando after the death of Isabel and of Philip; and by Juana's own son, emperor Charles V, who could not rule in Castile as long as his mother was alive and considered stable enough to rule. Isabel and Fernando did have a daughter named Isabel, who died young in childbirth. Her little baby, Miguel, died before reaching the age of 3, and you can see his coffin in the Cathedral of Granada, along with the coffins of the Catholic Kings, and of Juana and Philip the Handsome. Had little Miguel survived, he would have put a barrier against the tremendous reach of Charles V's inheritance, and the history of Europe and the Americas would have been very different.
Maria ejbronte@...
On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <> wrote:

After Anne's death Richard seem Ed about to marry a 30 something Portuguese princess who had been living as a nun. She was beautiful, and beatified after her death. Doesn't sound like a happy match for a healthy man in his thirties. Was Isabella the Spanish princess the famous Isabella the mad?

Karen wrote: Well, I will allow you the feminist interpretation. I thought it was she was the senior Lancastrian link to provide him that shoring up for his reign. She died five years later so I think Richard would have been bereaved twice and starving herself as a nun could hardly have increased her fertility. I doubt seriously he gave much thought to her ability to "rule". He wanted sons. That was the job of a royal queen, fertility. I think it was a bad choice in that regard. What good was she if she was infertile. He had lots of able men to help him "rule". Doug here: The problem is, of course, that we don't know why Richard, and his Council, decided on Joanna. There were economic and political ties to Portugal, so they were likely considered. Then there's the point that she was available and both of a marriageable age and, as far as anyone knew, capable of bearing children. And, finally, yes, she was the senior Lancastrian female heir of John of Gaunt. That last, however, could be viewed as, rather than shoring up Richard's support, a move to undercut and residual Lancastrian support for Tudor. And there is a difference. Nor do we know how much Joanna's death in 1490 was due to any actions on her part such as fasting and the like. It may have been caused by an illness completely unrelated to her life in the convent. There is simply no way to say, one way or the other, that, had the negotiations gone through to a conclusion and she had become Richard's wife, Joanna would still have died in 1490. She may very well have out-lived Richard. Joanna did seem to have had a well-developed sense of duty, which tells me anyway, that had she married Richard, she would have recognized the necessity for her adjusting her lifestyle from that of a devout, maiden Princess to that of a royal consort, one of whose duties was to bear children, and acted accordingly. Nor we do know anything that reflects her ability to have children; although she was at the upper edge of what is termed child-bearing years. Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Good post Doug...

Indeed! H (who is still catching up)

From: "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2017, 21:53
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: Spanish orincess

Good post Doug...

When Doug posts I often think yeah..I wish I'd said that..it spot on..

So do I. He just knows how to explain. H

From: "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Monday, 10 April 2017, 9:47
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: Spanish orincess

When Doug posts I often think yeah..I wish I'd said that..it spot on..

Yes H and Eileen, Doug knows how to phrase things without offending anyone. Lots of tact. Paul
Richard Liveth Yet


On 10 Apr 2017, at 13:37, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

So do I. He just knows how to explain. H

From: "cherryripe.eileenb@... [richardi iisocietyforum]" <>
To:
Sent: Monday, 10 April 2017, 9:47
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: Spanish orincess

When Doug posts I often think yeah..I wish I'd said that..it spot on..

Yes..if only everyone was like that...

I so agree&&

From: [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 9:45 AM
To:
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: Spanish orincess

Yes..if only everyone was like that...

Eileen wrote: Good post Doug... Thank you! Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Hilary wrote: Indeed! H (who is still catching up) Doug here: Thank you, too! Especially when one think of the time and effort that must go into your genealogy posts... Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Eileen wrote: :When Doug posts I often think yeah..I wish I'd said that..it spot on..  Doug here: And sometimes when Doug posts he wishes he hadn't hit the Send button so quickly... Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Hilary wrote: So do I. He just knows how to explain. Doug here: I put it down to my years writing technical reports and such-like while in the Navy; all the time with no idea how knowledgeable about the subject/s the reader/s would be. Again, thank you, and Eileen!, for the compliments. Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Doug, welcome to the club. I type and hit send, and think oops. I also do that when speaking. If only I has a recall button on my head!

From: [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 10:23 AM
To:
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: Spanish orincess

Eileen wrote:

:When Doug posts I often think yeah..I wish I'd said that..it spot on.. 

Doug here:

And sometimes when Doug posts he wishes he hadn't hit the Send button so quickly...

Doug

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Paul wrote: Yes H and Eileen, Doug knows how to phrase things without offending anyone. Lots of tact. Doug here: Thank you! I put it down to growing up in, and retiring to, a small town. Also all the time I spent on submarines. Very crowded submarines... Doug Who is now going to go bask in the glow from these very nice emails...
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

We do not want this to go to your head Doug..you will have to buy a bigger hat =

Doug as you worked in submarines you can have that bigger hat :). H (who is seriously claustrophobic)


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Monday, April 10, 2017, 6:15 pm, cherryripe.eileenb@... [] <> wrote:

We do not want this to go to your head Doug..you will have to buy a bigger hat =

If it gets much bigger he will be able to bring his shopping home in it...=C

=8=8


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Monday, April 10, 2017, 8:23 pm, cherryripe.eileenb@... [] <> wrote:

If it gets much bigger he will be able to bring his shopping home in it...=C

Eileen wrote: We do not want this to go to your head Doug..you will have to buy a bigger hat =  If that did happen, it'd definitely be because of your compliments...and not, say, the shaggy mop on my head. Unfortunately... Doug Who, as he gets older, is more and more taking on the appearance of Friar Tuck!
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Eileen wrote: If it gets much bigger he will be able to bring his shopping home in it...=C Doug here: I'll have you know my hat size is the same now as it was forty years ago! Then again, there is a bit less hair... Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Which Friar Tuck Doug? Paul

Envoyé de mon iPad
Le 11 avr. 2017 à 17:27, 'Doug Stamate' destama@... [] <> a écrit :

Eileen wrote: We do not want this to go to your head Doug..you will have to buy a bigger hat =  If that did happen, it'd definitely be because of your compliments...and not, say, the shaggy mop on my head. Unfortunately... Doug Who, as he gets older, is more and more taking on the appearance of Friar Tuck!
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

The good looking one of course Paul!

In the recent French musical he was a long haired handsome 22 year old !
Bit different from the jovial fatty we are used to in movies or télévision versions ! Bet I know which Doug would préfère !
Paul

Envoyé depuis mon Sony Xperia(TM) XA Ultra d'Orange

---- cherryripe.eileenb@... [] wrote ----

The good looking one of course Paul!

I, for one, love Friar Tuck!
On Apr 11, 2017, at 10:27 AM, 'Doug Stamate' destama@... [] <> wrote:

Eileen wrote: We do not want this to go to your head Doug..you will have to buy a bigger hat =  If that did happen, it'd definitely be because of your compliments...and not, say, the shaggy mop on my head. Unfortunately... Doug Who, as he gets older, is more and more taking on the appearance of Friar Tuck!
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Yeah..thats the one...

Paul wrote: In the recent French musical he was a long haired handsome 22 year old !
Bit different from the jovial fatty we are used to in movies or télévision versions ! Bet I know which Doug would préfère ! Doug here: Oh, I dunno... Doug Who managed to type that with the electronic equivalent of keeping a straight face.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.