Richard III Research and Discussion Archive
Fw: [Richard III Society Forum] membership became Velville
Re: membership became Velville
Is Roland the subject of your next novel? He would certainly be an interesting subject.
The Happy Warrior website (you may have seen it) has a lot of information on Roland de Velville. The bards and some anecdotal evidence lean in the direction that he was likely Henry's illegitimate son. When they mention ''gentle peacock who was the kinsman of the stags of Penmynydd,' 'of a line near to the crown and its blood' and 'of the race of the earls of all England,' who else could they be referring to?
'Dyna lin y brenhinoedd/Bur at hen waed brytain oedd' is translated here as ''lineage of kings...purely descended from the blood of Brittany' in the Robert Evans poem may be mistranslated here, and should read 'blood of Britain.' Britain (in this case British Isles or ancient Britons) is Prydain in Welsh whereas Brittany is Llydaw. If this is what correct, then this must also be a reference to Henry.
It isn't quite clear how old Roland was. 1474 is usually given, but it has been said that he was at Bosworth, (but that isn't certain) and he did military service in Brittany in 1489. It is possible that he was born when Henry was 16 or 17, but what was the minimum age for military service? He seems a bit young, could he have been a page or squire?
Also, Vergil (or maybe Bernard Andre) said that ad Henry had 8 children, but it seems clear that he only had 7 with Elizabeth of York. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of other children and there was a painting depicting all the known children, even though some were dead when it was painted. So, if Henry's complete family with Elizabeth of York is 7 children, then who is child 8.
I have seen some suggestions that Henry may have had a secret wife in Brittany and Roland was their son, but always dismissed it thinking that if he married Elizabeth of York she must have been dead, but Roland would have been their heir anyway. But, if she was alive...that would be interesting!
Nico
SIR ROLAND DE VELEVILLE
SIR ROLAND DE VELEVILLE
On Wednesday, 22 February 2017, 17:25, "Sandra Wilson sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:
Thank you, Marie. It's very tempting to me to wonder what if Roland was definitely Henry VII's son, but born in wedlock? Truth is often stranger than fiction, just think of Edward IV. Henry might have entered a very secret match while he was in early early-mid teens. Just imagine his quandary when it became necessary to promise marriage to Elizabeth of York. Well, it's a good plot... Sandra =^..^=
Re: membership became Velville
Hi Sandra,
Is Roland the subject of your next novel? He would certainly be an interesting subject.
The Happy Warrior website (you may have seen it) has a lot of information on Roland de Velville.
The bards and some anecdotal evidence lean in the direction that he was likely Henry's illegitimate son. When they mention
''gentle peacock who was the kinsman of the stags of Penmynydd,' 'of a line near to the crown and its blood'
and 'of the race of the earls of all England,' who else could they be referring to?
'Dyna lin y brenhinoedd/Bur at hen waed brytain oedd' is translated here as ''lineage of kings...purely descended from the blood of Brittany'
in the Robert Evans poem may be mistranslated here, and should read
'blood of Britain.' Britain (in this case British Isles or ancient Britons) is Prydain in Welsh whereas Brittany is Llydaw.
If
this is what correct, then this must also be a reference to Henry.
It isn't quite clear how old Roland was. 1474 is usually given, but it has been said that he was at Bosworth, (but that isn't certain) and he
did military service in Brittany in 1489. It is possible that he was born when Henry was 16 or 17, but what was the minimum age for military service? He seems a bit young, could he have been a page or squire?
Also, Vergil (or maybe Bernard Andre) said that ad Henry had 8 children, but it seems clear that he only had 7 with Elizabeth of York. There
doesn't seem to be any evidence of other children and there was a painting depicting all the known children, even though some were dead when it was painted. So, if Henry's complete family with Elizabeth of York is 7 children, then who is child 8.
I have seen some suggestions that Henry may have had a secret wife in Brittany and Roland was their son, but always dismissed it thinking that
if he married Elizabeth of York she must have been dead, but Roland would have been their heir anyway. But, if she was alive...that would be interesting!
Nico
.
Re: membership became Velville
Nico
On Thursday, 23 February 2017, 12:58, "Sandra Wilson sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:
Hello Nico. Roland featured a great deal in my last novel, Cicely's Sovereign Secret (he being the Sovereign Secret), and will feature in the next, Cicely's Dark Hallowtide. (I can hear David wincing...) I chose to have Henry make an unwise and impulsive youthful match in Brittany, and keep it secret. His Breton bride also had reason to keep quiet---fear of her brother, an important magnate. Henry then committed himself to marrying Elizabeth of York, while his first wife was still alive---she by then having been forced into a bigamous marriage elsewhere, and her child by Henry (Roland) being born and accepted within this second marriage. The first marriage was therefore a ticking bomb for Henry, who took Roland into his household in response to the dying wish of his first wife, who feared the boy would suffer at his stepfather's hands once she had gone. Henry owed the boy that much, although no one knows of Roland's parentage. So I created a repeat situation of the Edward IV-Eleanor Talbot connection, with all the baggage it entailed for the future. However, as always in my Cicely books, I have gone to great lengths in the Author Note to explain that it is my invention. At no point do I pretend it is fact. Thank you for the Happy Warrior link. Yes, I had seen it before. Like you, I do not know if Roland would have been old enough to fight at Bosworth, but yes, he did do military service in Brittany in 1489. Regarding Child 8...Roland seems a prime candidate. Somehow I do not think Henry strayed from the bed he shared with Elizabeth. All his straying was done before he married her. (Um...I required an Author Note on this point, because stray he certainly does in my books.) Sorry David, for all your reasoning, there remains too much smoke around Roland for there not to be a fire of some sort. And the source of the fire was Henry VII. Sandra From: mailto: Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 11:59 AM To: Subject: Re: membership became Velville Hi Sandra,
Is Roland the subject of your next novel? He would certainly be an interesting subject.
The Happy Warrior website (you may have seen it) has a lot of information on Roland de Velville. The bards and some anecdotal evidence lean in the direction that he was likely Henry's illegitimate son. When they mention ''gentle peacock who was the kinsman of the stags of Penmynydd,' 'of a line near to the crown and its blood' and 'of the race of the earls of all England,' who else could they be referring to?
'Dyna lin y brenhinoedd/Bur at hen waed brytain oedd' is translated here as ''lineage of kings...purely descended from the blood of Brittany' in the Robert Evans poem may be mistranslated here, and should read 'blood of Britain.' Britain (in this case British Isles or ancient Britons) is Prydain in Welsh whereas Brittany is Llydaw. If this is what correct, then this must also be a reference to Henry.
It isn't quite clear how old Roland was. 1474 is usually given, but it has been said that he was at Bosworth, (but that isn't certain) and he did military service in Brittany in 1489. It is possible that he was born when Henry was 16 or 17, but what was the minimum age for military service? He seems a bit young, could he have been a page or squire?
Also, Vergil (or maybe Bernard Andre) said that ad Henry had 8 children, but it seems clear that he only had 7 with Elizabeth of York. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of other children and there was a painting depicting all the known children, even though some were dead when it was painted. So, if Henry's complete family with Elizabeth of York is 7 children, then who is child 8.
I have seen some suggestions that Henry may have had a secret wife in Brittany and Roland was their son, but always dismissed it thinking that if he married Elizabeth of York she must have been dead, but Roland would have been their heir anyway. But, if she was alive...that would be interesting!
Nico
.
Re: membership became Velville
Mary
Re: membership became Velville
I think it's not impossible, but it would have to have been a clandestine marriage, as there is no sign of a wife for Henry in the Breton records and it cannot have been public knowledge.
It fits quite well with the record, actually (which can't be said for all novelistic plots). Could be used to explain why Henry was reluctant to marry Elizabeth, and got so many dispensations and papal ratifications of the legality of his marriage and legitimacy of the offspring. Could explain why he felt moved to explain to the pope that he had married Elizabeth, rather than making a foreign match, to appease the people and prevent further civil war. Could it even be used to explain a possible impediment of 4th-degree affinity that the Pope slipped into one of the dispensations?
Re: membership became Velville
I had no idea that that the Pope included 4th degree affinity in Henry and Elizabeth's dispensation. There must have been a reason for doing this and some reason to believe that one (or both) of them had a sexual relationship with a 4th degree relative of the the other. Could this have been a reference to the rumours about Richard and Elizabeth - not necessarily saying they were true, but to render discussion of the issue irrelevant as far as the validity of Henry's marriage was concerned?
Personally, I don't believe that Richard and Elizabeth were having an affair, and it was unlikely that she had any other sexual partners that Henry. So, that leaves Henry, who had spent his adult life in Brittany/France, where there may have been a few, but not that many relatives of Elizabeth (descendants of Isabella, Lady Coucy perhaps). Could this narrow down the the possibilities for love interests for him?
Also, wasn't there some reference to affinity of this kind in the dispensation for Margaret of York and Phillip of Burgundy?
Nico
On Monday, 27 February 2017, 15:43, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I think it's not impossible, but it would have to have been a clandestine marriage, as there is no sign of a wife for Henry in the Breton records and it cannot have been public knowledge.It fits quite well with the record, actually (which can't be said for all novelistic plots). Could be used to explain why Henry was reluctant to marry Elizabeth, and got so many dispensations and papal ratifications of the legality of his marriage and legitimacy of the offspring. Could explain why he felt moved to explain to the pope that he had married Elizabeth, rather than making a foreign match, to appease the people and prevent further civil war. Could it even be used to explain a possible impediment of 4th-degree affinity that the Pope slipped into one of the dispensations?
Re: membership became Velville
Hi Nico,
There were so many dispensations issued, and the affinity was a possible ('forsan') affinity in 4th & 4th degrees included in only one of the dispensations.
it may have been an error, caused by confusion due to rehearsal of the fact that the legate had power to grant dispensations from consanguinity and affinity in the 3rd and 4th degrees.
It can't have been to do with Richard as that would have created affinity with Henry in the 3rd & 4th degrees, but a novelist could have a lot of fun working out who Elizabeth or Henry might have slept with.
Let's hope that icky Richard & Elizabeth idea now finally bites the dust.
Re: membership became Velville
A novelist … or a Consanguinity Test?
From:
[mailto: ]
On Behalf Of mariewalsh2003
Sent: 01 March 2017 20:55
To:
Subject: Re: [Richard III Society
Forum] membership became Velville
Hi Nico,
There were so many dispensations issued, and the affinity was a possible ('forsan') affinity in 4th & 4th degrees included in only one of the dispensations.
it may have been an error, caused by confusion due to rehearsal of the fact that the legate had power to grant dispensations from consanguinity and affinity in the 3rd and 4th degrees.
It can't have been to do with Richard as that would have created affinity with Henry in the 3rd & 4th degrees, but a novelist could have a lot of fun working out who Elizabeth or Henry might have slept with.
Let's hope that icky Richard & Elizabeth idea now finally bites the dust.
Re: membership became Velville
Re: membership became Velville
On Wednesday, 1 March 2017, 22:09, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Consanguinity test obviously necessary but there is more than one possible solution to the 4th & 4th affinity even if we do allow it to be more than a papal mistake.
Re: membership became Velville
Nico, Marie and Sandra,
I said the bardic references could be difficult.
If you read Prof Williams's email in the happy warrior page more carefully, you will see the logical error he makes in the Stags of Penmynydd poem.
In spite of his great academic achievements, he seems to have been too keen to prove his former tutor correct.
You will see that this is not a poem about Roland written shortly after his death, but in praise of his great grandson, John Salusbury. So it is possible it dates from the early 17th century.
The first line of the poem obviously refers to Velville (felfil) but the stag of the second line is only identified as Roland by the writer's insertion of his name in addition to the original text.
So the second line only says that the Stags are kin of the subject - John Salusbury. Since we already know that Roland's wife was related to the Tudors and that the Stag's head is a device used by the Griffiths family, as far as Roland's parentage is concerned it tells us nothing.
Also the early reference (Writhes knights) does not bear a crown as in the arms of Goyon.
Four of the documents that refer to Roland's arms agree on all 4 main elements, plus either 1 or 2 elements in an inescutcheon. I have identified all 6 as those of families linked to the Cosquers in the period or their ancestors.
The relationship between the remaining two elements is explained by this page. There is a link on the page from element 5 to 6.
http://www.francegenweb.org/heraldique//base/details.php?image_id=7881
Trogoff ancient and Trogoff modern, cadets of the barons of Lanvaux, themselves cadets of the Counts of Vannes a royal house of Brittany merged with the Ducal Estate.
The 'Earls of all England' reference is explained by Leon - see Hervé II, Earl of Wiltshire and son in law of King Stephen.
Another approach is to study Roland's Breton colleague - Guillaume de la Riviere. He jousts in the same team as Roland and is sent to Brittany in the same expedition. The Breton army spent time in the area where Roland and Guillaume's families were based.
What do the families of Roland and Guillaume have in Common? The Cathedral of Treguier, where the Cosquers had a chapel and preeminences - a family member was Bishop. The de la Rivieres came into the manor of Kermartin formerly owned by Saint Yves.
A fact little known is that Henry travelled to Treguier in 1484 on pilgrimage. The reason for this may be the other Saint honoured there - Tugdual or Tudwal has links to Gwynedd.
So we have an individual of the same name present before 1484, the intersection of the paths of Henry, Guillaume and Roland, after which the two Bretons follow a common path until one inherited the family estate and returned, the other didn't and stayed.
I have much more information about the various families and there is a single article written in the 19th century for the Archaeological Society of Finistere about the seigneuries of Trogoff, which mentions all the families and their coats of arms.
Kind regards
David
On 23 Feb 2017 11:59 a.m., "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <> wrote:
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> Hi Sandra,
>
> Is Roland the subject of your next novel? He would certainly be an interesting subject.
>
> The Happy Warrior website (you may have seen it) has a lot of information on Roland de Velville. The bards and some anecdotal evidence lean in the direction that he was likely Henry's illegitimate son. When they mention ''gentle peacock who was the kinsman of the stags of Penmynydd,' 'of a line near to the crown and its blood' and 'of the race of the earls of all England,' who else could they be referring to?
> 'Dyna lin y brenhinoedd/Bur at hen waed brytain oedd' is translated here as ''lineage of kings...purely descended from the blood of Brittany' in the Robert Evans poem may be mistranslated here, and should read 'blood of Britain.' Britain (in this case British Isles or ancient Britons) is Prydain in Welsh whereas Brittany is Llydaw. If this is what correct, then this must also be a reference to Henry.
>
> It isn't quite clear how old Roland was. 1474 is usually given, but it has been said that he was at Bosworth, (but that isn't certain) and he did military service in Brittany in 1489. It is possible that he was born when Henry was 16 or 17, but what was the minimum age for military service? He seems a bit young, could he have been a page or squire?
>
> Also, Vergil (or maybe Bernard Andre) said that ad Henry had 8 children, but it seems clear that he only had 7 with Elizabeth of York. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of other children and there was a painting depicting all the known children, even though some were dead when it was painted. So, if Henry's complete family with Elizabeth of York is 7 children, then who is child 8.
>
> I have seen some suggestions that Henry may have had a secret wife in Brittany and Roland was their son, but always dismissed it thinking that if he married Elizabeth of York she must have been dead, but Roland would have been their heir anyway. But, if she was alive...that would be interesting!
>
> Nico
>
> SIR ROLAND DE VELEVILLE
>
> SIR ROLAND DE VELEVILLE
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 22 February 2017, 17:25, "Sandra Wilson sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thank you, Marie. It’s very tempting to me to wonder what if Roland was definitely Henry VII’s son, but born in wedlock? Truth is often stranger than fiction, just think of Edward IV. Henry might have entered a very secret match while he was in early early-mid teens. Just imagine his quandary when it became necessary to promise marriage to Elizabeth of York. Well, it’s a good plot...
>
> Sandra
> =^..^=
>
>
>