Richard III Research and Discussion Archive
Mourning Customs in Fifiteenth-Century England
2017-02-05 21:24:12
Greetings, all,
As some of you know, I've been writing a Ricardian time-travel novel (yes, I know, as if the world needs another one of those!). I'm just about done with the first draft, but I've got myself stuck on a particular point that I can't get past: namely, the mourning customs of fifteenth-century England, particularly where the folk above the salt were concerned.
In particular, I'm wondering whether English male nobles of that time observed any sort of extended mourning period that required the wearing of certain types or colors of clothing. Black seems to have firmly become the color of mourning by the sixteenth century (hence Elizabeth famously, and apparently sarcastically, having her court dress in black to greet the French ambassador in the aftermath of the massacre of the Huguenots), and the Use of Sarum (which my mourner would have followed) mandates its use for Requiem Masses (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm), but white seems to have been popular in France, at least for women. (Mary, Queen of Scots was painted wearing a white mourning veil for her husband.)
My thanks for any information that anyone might have.
Tamara
Re: Mourning Customs in Fifiteenth-Century England
2017-02-05 23:01:19
Tamara, although I agree about the white wimples for mourning I can't help you on this, but it did jog me to ask another question about clothes which has recently intrigued me. That is when did male attire change from the tight doublets and hose of the 1470 illustrations to the looser 'jackets' of Henry VII and Henry VIII? And indeed when did gable hoods come in for women? We can get some idea about women from looking at brasses, but these could of course have been designed by those not in tune with contemporary fashion. Men, on the other hand, tend to be even more difficult because they are either portrayed in armour, or as in the case of judges and merchants, in long robes.It just struck me that the looser-style garments would have been much more comfortable for a king with scoliosis who did not have a defined waistline and that what we have always considered to be Tudor fashion could well have come in with Richard, or even a fatter Edward? Certainly in his portraits Richard seems to be wearing some sort of over garment like the short over-jackets seen in Henry VIII's portraits. Am I right in thinking we don't have any illustrations from 1480s England in the way we do for the rest of Europe - and fashion in Europe as we know could be quite different? A frivolous question I know but intriguing. And there is out there supposedly a lost picture of Anne. Perhaps it's been passed over because she has a gable hood :) :) H
From: "khafara@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2017, 21:24
Subject: Mourning Customs in Fifiteenth-Century England
Greetings, all,
As some of you know, I've been writing a Ricardian time-travel novel (yes, I know, as if the world needs another one of those!). I'm just about done with the first draft, but I've got myself stuck on a particular point that I can't get past: namely, the mourning customs of fifteenth-century England, particularly where the folk above the salt were concerned.
In particular, I'm wondering whether English male nobles of that time observed any sort of extended mourning period that required the wearing of certain types or colors of clothing. Black seems to have firmly become the color of mourning by the sixteenth century (hence Elizabeth famously, and apparently sarcastically, having her court dress in black to greet the French ambassador in the aftermath of the massacre of the Huguenots), and the Use of Sarum (which my mourner would have followed) mandates its use for Requiem Masses (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm), but white seems to have been popular in France, at least for women. (Mary, Queen of Scots was painted wearing a white mourning veil for her husband.)
My thanks for any information that anyone might have. Tamara
From: "khafara@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2017, 21:24
Subject: Mourning Customs in Fifiteenth-Century England
Greetings, all,
As some of you know, I've been writing a Ricardian time-travel novel (yes, I know, as if the world needs another one of those!). I'm just about done with the first draft, but I've got myself stuck on a particular point that I can't get past: namely, the mourning customs of fifteenth-century England, particularly where the folk above the salt were concerned.
In particular, I'm wondering whether English male nobles of that time observed any sort of extended mourning period that required the wearing of certain types or colors of clothing. Black seems to have firmly become the color of mourning by the sixteenth century (hence Elizabeth famously, and apparently sarcastically, having her court dress in black to greet the French ambassador in the aftermath of the massacre of the Huguenots), and the Use of Sarum (which my mourner would have followed) mandates its use for Requiem Masses (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm), but white seems to have been popular in France, at least for women. (Mary, Queen of Scots was painted wearing a white mourning veil for her husband.)
My thanks for any information that anyone might have. Tamara
Re: Mourning Customs in Fifiteenth-Century England
2017-02-07 23:45:15
Hilary wrote:
"Tamara, although I agree about the white wimples for mourning I can't help you on this, but it did jog me to ask another question about clothes which has recently intrigued me. That is when did male attire change from the tight doublets and hose of the 1470 illustrations to the looser 'jackets' of Henry VII and Henry VIII? And indeed when did gable hoods come in for women?"
Carol responds:
Here's a link to a website that may be helpful. This is the Richard III page. You can click on links to Edward IV or the early Tudor era in the menu on the lefthand side of the page:
http://www.fashion-era.com/english-costume/1483-1485-king-richard-iii.htm
The information is taken from "English Costume" by Dion Clayton Calthrop, which Tamara may want to check out from the library.
It does look as if short doublets went out with Edward IV (or, more likely, late in his reign--surely costumes didn't abruptly change with each new king. By Richard's reign, most high-ranking men would have worn the knee-length robes. Short doublets didn't go out entirely, however, as they show up again on the Tudor page. (Ignore the author's nonsense about winter in England going out with Richard at Bosworth Field and Henry VII bringing a breath of spring. Not sure whether to laugh, cry, or [forgive me] vomit in response to that ignorant remark. I'd advise the author of the webpage or book if it came from there to stick with discussing fashion and leave history to people who know what Richard actually accomplished or tried to accomplish.)
Carol
Carol
"Tamara, although I agree about the white wimples for mourning I can't help you on this, but it did jog me to ask another question about clothes which has recently intrigued me. That is when did male attire change from the tight doublets and hose of the 1470 illustrations to the looser 'jackets' of Henry VII and Henry VIII? And indeed when did gable hoods come in for women?"
Carol responds:
Here's a link to a website that may be helpful. This is the Richard III page. You can click on links to Edward IV or the early Tudor era in the menu on the lefthand side of the page:
http://www.fashion-era.com/english-costume/1483-1485-king-richard-iii.htm
The information is taken from "English Costume" by Dion Clayton Calthrop, which Tamara may want to check out from the library.
It does look as if short doublets went out with Edward IV (or, more likely, late in his reign--surely costumes didn't abruptly change with each new king. By Richard's reign, most high-ranking men would have worn the knee-length robes. Short doublets didn't go out entirely, however, as they show up again on the Tudor page. (Ignore the author's nonsense about winter in England going out with Richard at Bosworth Field and Henry VII bringing a breath of spring. Not sure whether to laugh, cry, or [forgive me] vomit in response to that ignorant remark. I'd advise the author of the webpage or book if it came from there to stick with discussing fashion and leave history to people who know what Richard actually accomplished or tried to accomplish.)
Carol
Carol
Re: Mourning Customs in Fifiteenth-Century England
2017-02-09 10:45:42
Thanks Carol. I could hardly see HT sweeping in with new fashion - would have cost too much for a start :) :) H
From: "justcarol67@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2017, 23:45
Subject: Re: Mourning Customs in Fifiteenth-Century England
Hilary wrote:
"Tamara, although I agree about the white wimples for mourning I can't help you on this, but it did jog me to ask another question about clothes which has recently intrigued me. That is when did male attire change from the tight doublets and hose of the 1470 illustrations to the looser 'jackets' of Henry VII and Henry VIII? And indeed when did gable hoods come in for women?"
Carol responds:
Here's a link to a website that may be helpful. This is the Richard III page. You can click on links to Edward IV or the early Tudor era in the menu on the lefthand side of the page:
http://www.fashion-era.com/english-costume/1483-1485-king-richard-iii.htm
The information is taken from "English Costume" by Dion Clayton Calthrop, which Tamara may want to check out from the library.
It does look as if short doublets went out with Edward IV (or, more likely, late in his reign--surely costumes didn't abruptly change with each new king. By Richard's reign, most high-ranking men would have worn the knee-length robes. Short doublets didn't go out entirely, however, as they show up again on the Tudor page. (Ignore the author's nonsense about winter in England going out with Richard at Bosworth Field and Henry VII bringing a breath of spring. Not sure whether to laugh, cry, or [forgive me] vomit in response to that ignorant remark. I'd advise the author of the webpage or book if it came from there to stick with discussing fashion and leave history to people who know what Richard actually accomplished or tried to accomplish.)
Carol
Carol
From: "justcarol67@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2017, 23:45
Subject: Re: Mourning Customs in Fifiteenth-Century England
Hilary wrote:
"Tamara, although I agree about the white wimples for mourning I can't help you on this, but it did jog me to ask another question about clothes which has recently intrigued me. That is when did male attire change from the tight doublets and hose of the 1470 illustrations to the looser 'jackets' of Henry VII and Henry VIII? And indeed when did gable hoods come in for women?"
Carol responds:
Here's a link to a website that may be helpful. This is the Richard III page. You can click on links to Edward IV or the early Tudor era in the menu on the lefthand side of the page:
http://www.fashion-era.com/english-costume/1483-1485-king-richard-iii.htm
The information is taken from "English Costume" by Dion Clayton Calthrop, which Tamara may want to check out from the library.
It does look as if short doublets went out with Edward IV (or, more likely, late in his reign--surely costumes didn't abruptly change with each new king. By Richard's reign, most high-ranking men would have worn the knee-length robes. Short doublets didn't go out entirely, however, as they show up again on the Tudor page. (Ignore the author's nonsense about winter in England going out with Richard at Bosworth Field and Henry VII bringing a breath of spring. Not sure whether to laugh, cry, or [forgive me] vomit in response to that ignorant remark. I'd advise the author of the webpage or book if it came from there to stick with discussing fashion and leave history to people who know what Richard actually accomplished or tried to accomplish.)
Carol
Carol
Re: Mourning Customs in Fifiteenth-Century England
2017-02-09 19:22:59
the only time he wasnt a tightwad was when he planned his funeral...