Richard III Research and Discussion Archive

Years ago I read her biography. She said of Katherine of Aragon, "I am fitter to be Queen than she".

On Feb 5, 2017 11:37 AM, "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <> wrote:
 

Was Mowbray bumped off?   JAH suggests so and also little Anne Mowbray too for good measure.    Oh and of course Eleanor.  I think, if my memory serves me correct.  this is all suggested in JAHs The Private Life of Edward IV.  Annette Carson has also put forward the theory that Edward was poisoned in her excellent book The Maligned King. Of course , its very probable George duke of Clarence  was helped along the way to his demise  (legally) by EW's goading/hectoring of her hubby.  Who knows..but its all very thought provoking.

Ah - I have always thought that there was more to the death of Anne Boleyn than just adultery, for reasons that are too lengthy to write here. It's one thing to put a queen aside, but quite another to make sure you totally silence her forever on what to even a layman appear trumped-up charges. I think the story is so familiar that we fail to recognise just what an unprecedented step Henry took by doing this. There had been queens who had offended far more - Eleanor of Aquitaine and Isabella to name a couple - but they had not been subjected to such punishment. After all, Henry could have locked her away, or sent her abroad. She had to be totally silenced. Why? H

From: "Karen O karenoder4@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2017, 17:06
Subject: What did Anne Boleyn mean?

Years ago I read her biography. She said of Katherine of Aragon, "I am fitter to be Queen than she".
On Feb 5, 2017 11:37 AM, "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <> wrote:
Was Mowbray bumped off? JAH suggests so and also little Anne Mowbray too for good measure. Oh and of course Eleanor. I think, if my memory serves me correct. this is all suggested in JAHs The Private Life of Edward IV. Annette Carson has also put forward the theory that Edward was poisoned in her excellent book The Maligned King. Of course , its very probable George duke of Clarence was helped along the way to his demise (legally) by EW's goading/hectoring of her hubby. Who knows..but its all very thought provoking.

I think there is a risk that we might see conspiracies everywhere. I think that Henry wanted her dead, so that his next marriage would be absolutely valid. He had already seen the problems of marrying a second wife, while the first one was still alive and didn't want to repeat the experience. It would also mean that there would be no possible challenge to the legitimacy of the heir he hoped to have. In the case of Eleanor of Aquitaine, Henry II had no wish to marry again and he had heirs aplenty, so the case is not the same. Isabella's son was old enough to take the crown - why would he want to kill off his mother?
----Original message----
From :
Date : 05/02/2017 - 23:10 (GMTST)
To :
Subject : Re: What did Anne Boleyn mean?







Ah - I have always thought that there was more to the death of Anne Boleyn than just adultery, for reasons that are too lengthy to write here. It's one thing to put a queen aside, but quite another to make sure you totally silence her forever on what to even a layman appear trumped-up charges. I think the story is so familiar that we fail to recognise just what an unprecedented step Henry took by doing this. There had been queens who had offended far more - Eleanor of Aquitaine and Isabella to name a couple - but they had not been subjected to such punishment. After all, Henry could have locked her away, or sent her abroad. She had to be totally silenced. Why? H
<
br>



From: "Karen O karenoder4@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2017, 17:06
Subject: What did Anne Boleyn mean?







Years ago I read her biography. She said of Katherine of Aragon, "I am fitter to be Queen than she".
On Feb 5, 2017 11:37 AM, "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <> wrote:







Was Mowbray bumped off? JAH suggests so and also little Anne Mowbray too for good measure. Oh and of course Eleanor. I think, if my memory serves me correct. this is all suggested in JAHs The Private Life of Edward IV. Annette Carson has also put forward the theory that Edward was poisoned in her excellent book The Maligned King. Of course , its very probable George duke of Clarence was helped along the way to his demise (legally) by EW's goading/hectoring of her hubby. Who knows..but its all very thought provoking.

Could she have been of illegitimate Yorkist royal lineage, say through Edward IV?

On Feb 5, 2017 6:10 PM, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []" <> wrote:
 

Ah - I have always thought that there was more to the death of Anne Boleyn than just adultery, for reasons that are too lengthy to write here. It's one thing to put a queen aside, but quite another to make sure you totally silence her forever on what to even a layman appear trumped-up charges. I think the story is so familiar that we fail to recognise just what an unprecedented step Henry took by doing this. There had been queens who had offended far more - Eleanor of Aquitaine and Isabella to name a couple - but they had not been subjected to such punishment. After all, Henry could have locked her away, or sent her abroad. She had to be totally silenced. Why? H 

From: "Karen O karenoder4@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com>
To: @ yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2017, 17:06
Subject: What did Anne Boleyn mean?

  Years ago I read her biography. She said of Katherine of Aragon, "I am fitter to be Queen than she".
On Feb 5, 2017 11:37 AM, "cherryripe.eileenb@ googlemail.com []" <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
  Was Mowbray bumped off?   JAH suggests so and also little Anne Mowbray too for good measure.    Oh and of course Eleanor.  I think, if my memory serves me correct.  this is all suggested in JAHs The Private Life of Edward IV.  Annette Carson has also put forward the theory that Edward was poisoned in her excellent book The Maligned King. Of course , its very probable George duke of Clarence  was helped along the way to his demise  (legally) by EW's goading/hectoring of her hubby.  Who knows..but its all very thought provoking.

Trouble is that as Head of the Church he could now do anything so it wouldn't be the same.I'm thinking more of her contacts. After her death people like Sir Adrian Fortescue were sent to the Tower and executed without trial. Of course the climax was the execution of Margaret Pole. Anne had spent a lot of time in the French court. Had she heard something there? While she was queen she was no threat, but a bitter outspoken Anne could be real trouble. She certainly belongs to the Kent 'set' - Darcy, Tyrell, Cheney, even Roper and of course Howard itself, whose names at times have been associated with the Woodvilles and hence the princes. Indeed the Robsarts also belonged to those circles and look at the strange happening there. Then of course there is Sir Thomas Moyle at whose house our wandering bricklayer supposedly turned up. Rumour, true or not, can be dangerous, as we've seen with Richard. H


From: "Pamela Furmidge pamela.furmidge@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Monday, 6 February 2017, 6:36
Subject: Re: What did Anne Boleyn mean?

I think there is a risk that we might see conspiracies everywhere. I think that Henry wanted her dead, so that his next marriage would be absolutely valid. He had already seen the problems of marrying a second wife, while the first one was still alive and didn't want to repeat the experience. It would also mean that there would be no possible challenge to the legitimacy of the heir he hoped to have. In the case of Eleanor of Aquitaine, Henry II had no wish to marry again and he had heirs aplenty, so the case is not the same. Isabella's son was old enough to take the crown - why would he want to kill off his mother?
----Original message----
From :
Date : 05/02/2017 - 23:10 (GMTST)
To :
Subject : Re: What did Anne Boleyn mean?







Ah - I have always thought that there was more to the death of Anne Boleyn than just adultery, for reasons that are too lengthy to write here. It's one thing to put a queen aside, but quite another to make sure you totally silence her forever on what to even a layman appear trumped-up charges. I think the story is so familiar that we fail to recognise just what an unprecedented step Henry took by doing this. There had been queens who had offended far more - Eleanor of Aquitaine and Isabella to name a couple - but they had not been subjected to such punishment. After all, Henry could have locked her away, or sent her abroad. She had to be totally silenced. Why? H
<
br>



From: "Karen O karenoder4@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2017, 17:06
Subject: What did Anne Boleyn mean?







Years ago I read her biography. She said of Katherine of Aragon, "I am fitter to be Queen than she".
On Feb 5, 2017 11:37 AM, "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <> wrote:







Was Mowbray bumped off? JAH suggests so and also little Anne Mowbray too for good measure. Oh and of course Eleanor. I think, if my memory serves me correct. this is all suggested in JAHs The Private Life of Edward IV. Annette Carson has also put forward the theory that Edward was poisoned in her excellent book The Maligned King. Of course , its very probable George duke of Clarence was helped along the way to his demise (legally) by EW's goading/hectoring of her hubby. Who knows..but its all very thought provoking.

Yes, he could do what he liked in England, but not in the rest of Europe. England could have been vulnerable to foreign action (as it was later with the Armarda) if there was any doubt about the legitimacy of his heir - Henry II of France and his daughter-in-law Mary Queen of Scots with her claim to the crown, was a potential threat. Also Henry didn't want to be regarded as a laughing stock - his queen was guilty of adultery and treason, would he let her live? I don't think so. I still think he was anxious that his next marriage should start with a 'clean sheet' no former wives around to attract supporters, no shadows cast on the legitimacy of his heir.
Also do you think that the conspirators of the 1480s (or their families) would have still been a force in the England of the 1530s? The Wars of the Roses was dead and gone - the Tudors had managed to thin the ranks of the Yorkists with any claim. Henry was sure he would have a male heir.
----Original message----
From :
Date : 06/02/2017 - 14:21 (GMTST)
To :
Subject : Re: What did Anne Boleyn mean?







Trouble is that as Head of the Church he could now do anything so it wouldn't be the same.
I'm thinking more of her contacts. After her death people like Sir Adrian Fortescue were sent to the Tower and executed without trial. Of course the climax was the execution of Margaret Pole. Anne had spent a lot of time in the French court. Had she heard something there? While she was queen she was no threat, but a bitter outspoken Anne could be real trouble. She certainly belongs to the Kent 'set' - Darcy, Tyrell, Cheney, even Roper and of course Howard itself, whose names at times have been associated with the Woodvilles and hence the princes. Indeed the Robsarts also belonged to
those circles and look at the strange happening there. Then of course there is Sir Thomas Moyle at whose house our wandering bricklayer supposedly turned up. Rumour, true or not, can be dangerous, as we've seen with Richard. H



From: "Pamela Furmidge pamela.furmidge@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Monday, 6 February 2017, 6:36
Subject: Re: What did Anne Boleyn mean?







I think there is a risk that we might see conspiracies everywhere. I think that Henry wanted her dead, so that his next marriage would be absolutely valid. He had already seen the problems of marrying a second wife, while the first one was still alive and didn't want to repeat the experience. It would also mean that there would be no possible challenge to the legitimacy of the heir he hoped to have. In the case of Eleanor of Aquitaine, Henry II had no wish to marry again and he had heirs aplenty, so the case is not the same. Isabella's son was old enough to take the crown - why would he want to kill off his mother?
----Original message----
From :
Date : 05/02/2017 - 23:10 (GMTST)
To :
Subject : Re: What did Anne Boleyn mean?







Ah - I have always thought that there was more to the death of Anne Boleyn than just adultery, for reasons that are too lengthy to write here. It's one thing to put a queen aside, but quite another to make sure you totally silence her forever on what to even a layman appear trumped-up charges. I think the story is so familiar that we fail to recognise just what an unprecedented step Henry took by doing this. There had been queens who had offended far more - Eleanor of Aquitaine and Isabella to name a couple - but they had not been subjected to such punishment. After all, Henry could have locked her away, or sent her abroad. She had to be totally silenced. Why? H
<
br>



From: "Karen O karenoder4@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2017, 17:06
Subject: What did Anne Boleyn mean?







Years ago I read her biography. She said of Katherine of Aragon, "I am fitter to be Queen than she".
On Feb 5, 2017 11:37 AM, "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <> wrote:







Was Mowbray bumped off? JAH suggests so and also little Anne Mowbray too for good measure. Oh and of course Eleanor. I think, if my memory serves me correct. this is all suggested in JAHs The Private Life of Edward IV. Annette Carson has also put forward the theory that Edward was poisoned in her excellent book The Maligned King. Of course , its very probable George duke of Clarence was helped along the way to his demise (legally) by EW's goading/hectoring of her hubby. Who knows..but its all very thought provoking.

Karen O wrote:

"Years ago I read [Anne Boleyn's] biography. She said of Katherine of Aragon, "I am fitter to be Queen than she"." [What did she mean by that?]

Hi, Karen. The thread seems to have strayed away from your original question, possibly because you asked it in the subject line rather than the post itself.

I suspect that the answer is simple and that Anne only meant "I'm English and Protestant" (as opposed to Spanish and Catholic like Catherine of Aragon.

Carol