Has York given up on Richard?
Has York given up on Richard?
York at Christmas. White lights on Petergate that imitate sheet ice - brilliant! The carillion from the Minster playing carols, the Salvation Army in the marketplace, ghost tours beginning in the damp dusk. In the enormous Minster a solitary cello is playing 'Veni Emmanuel' whilst students from the uni drift up and down the aisles floating huge helium-filled stars and clouds - magic.
But where is Richard in this town any longer? In Monksgate, I'm told. There's no mention of him in the Minster, where the Wall of Kings ends with a very lifelike Henry VI (all the others are clearly from the masons' imagination; Henry V is fat and has long curly hair). Did anything important ever happen in this place, asks a nearby visitor? Isn't its only royal connection that a son of Edward III is buried there? There's nothing in the brochure about York's most famous royal fan. (I wonder how many of the faces in the restored Great East Window, finished in 1472, are drawn from ones he knew). The gift shop clearly has an investment in paperweights, but if you hunt you can find one tiny boar badge to cater for the likes of us.
What has happened to York? It's over twenty years since I did a tourist visit but then Richard was round every corner. Is it because his York is vanishing fast? The restaurants and shops resonate with the cut-glass southern accents of intellectuals and fashionistas trying to turn the place into the Cambridge of the North - they've even brought their muesli and bikes. Anthony Woodville has moved in. In the countryside they charge around in their Range Rovers and walk the Labrador on Sundays.
Please, someone from York, tell me I'm wrong. Or have you all gone underground in despair? H
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
York is one of my favourite cities, though unfortunately I haven't been there for more than 10 years. I hope the Anthony Woodvilles aren't sapping it of its character. Maybe the Society could do something to promote Richard in York, especially since his profile has never been higher.
Nico
On Monday, 12 December 2016, 10:01, "hjnatdat@... []" <> wrote:
York at Christmas. White lights on Petergate that imitate sheet ice - brilliant! The carillion from the Minster playing carols, the Salvation Army in the marketplace, ghost tours beginning in the damp dusk. In the enormous Minster a solitary cello is playing 'Veni Emmanuel' whilst students from the uni drift up and down the aisles floating huge helium-filled stars and clouds - magic.But where is Richard in this town any longer? In Monksgate, I'm told. There's no mention of him in the Minster, where the Wall of Kings ends with a very lifelike Henry VI (all the others are clearly from the masons' imagination; Henry V is fat and has long curly hair). Did anything important ever happen in this place, asks a nearby visitor? Isn't its only royal connection that a son of Edward III is buried there? There's nothing in the brochure about York's most famous royal fan. (I wonder how many of the faces in the restored Great East Window, finished in 1472, are drawn from ones he knew). The gift shop clearly has an investment in paperweights, but if you hunt you can find one tiny boar badge to cater for the likes of us.What has happened to York? It's over twenty years since I did a tourist visit but then Richard was round every corner. Is it because his York is vanishing fast? The restaurants and shops resonate with the cut-glass southern accents of intellectuals and fashionistas trying to turn the place into the Cambridge of the North - they've even brought their muesli and bikes. Anthony Woodville has moved in. In the countryside they charge around in their Range Rovers and walk the Labrador on Sundays.Please, someone from York, tell me I'm wrong. Or have you all gone underground in despair? H
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 13 December 2016, 9:41
Subject: Re: Has York given up on Richard?
York is one of my favourite cities, though unfortunately I haven't been there for more than 10 years. I hope the Anthony Woodvilles aren't sapping it of its character. Maybe the Society could do something to promote Richard in York, especially since his profile has never been higher.
Nico
On Monday, 12 December 2016, 10:01, "hjnatdat@... []" <> wrote:
York at Christmas. White lights on Petergate that imitate sheet ice - brilliant! The carillion from the Minster playing carols, the Salvation Army in the marketplace, ghost tours beginning in the damp dusk. In the enormous Minster a solitary cello is playing 'Veni Emmanuel' whilst students from the uni drift up and down the aisles floating huge helium-filled stars and clouds - magic.But where is Richard in this town any longer? In Monksgate, I'm told. There's no mention of him in the Minster, where the Wall of Kings ends with a very lifelike Henry VI (all the others are clearly from the masons' imagination; Henry V is fat and has long curly hair). Did anything important ever happen in this place, asks a nearby visitor? Isn't its only royal connection that a son of Edward III is buried there? There's nothing in the brochure about York's most famous royal fan. (I wonder how many of the faces in the restored Great East Window, finished in 1472, are drawn from ones he knew). The gift shop clearly has an investment in paperweights, but if you hunt you can find one tiny boar badge to cater for the likes of us.What has happened to York? It's over twenty years since I did a tourist visit but then Richard was round every corner. Is it because his York is vanishing fast? The restaurants and shops resonate with the cut-glass southern accents of intellectuals and fashionistas trying to turn the place into the Cambridge of the North - they've even brought their muesli and bikes. Anthony Woodville has moved in. In the countryside they charge around in their Range Rovers and walk the Labrador on Sundays.Please, someone from York, tell me I'm wrong. Or have you all gone underground in despair? H
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Mary
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Beautiful description, Hilary; thanks for sharing that. I do love York.
What amazed me when I visited the Minster Archives last year is how little even the archivists there understood about Richard's connections with York. They knew about his first visit as king, when his son was invested as Prince of Wales, but what I was actually looking for was more evidence concerning his visit in early May 1484, and I had a real job convincing them that I wasn't simply imagining he came back.
If that's what people in York believe, then of course a Henry VII museum would appear to be just as appropriate as a Richard III one.
The propaganda emanating from the Leicester reburial campaign - to the effect that Richard was almost never in York - seems to have been taken at face value by a lot of people, and has no doubt contributed.
And I'm afraid I have to add that not all Ricardians have sold themselves and their cause well in the city. An aggressive and demanding stance ain't going to win hearts and minds. Yes, I realise that the Ricardians who behave like that are very few in number, but a few stray cannonballs can do a lot of damage.
Solution? Don't really know. Campaigns require co-operation of local authorities, bookshops, tearooms or the like, so it might be hard to start from where we are. Perhaps the best first start would be a well researched but readable full-scale book (not a pamphlet) on Richard's connections with York - with lots of nice local illustrations - that could be sold in every bookshop in the city?
Marie
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:49 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
Beautiful description, Hilary; thanks for sharing that. I do love York.
What amazed me when I visited the Minster Archives last year is how little even the archivists there understood about Richard's connections with York. They knew about his first visit as king, when his son was invested as Prince of Wales, but what I was actually looking for was more evidence concerning his visit in early May 1484, and I had a real job convincing them that I wasn't simply imagining he came back.
If that's what people in York believe, then of course a Henry VII museum would appear to be just as appropriate as a Richard III one.
The propaganda emanating from the Leicester reburial campaign - to the effect that Richard was almost never in York - seems to have been taken at face value by a lot of people, and has no doubt contributed.
And I'm afraid I have to add that not all Ricardians have sold themselves and their cause well in the city. An aggressive and demanding stance ain't going to win hearts and minds. Yes, I realise that the Ricardians who behave like that are very few in number, but a few stray cannonballs can do a lot of damage.
Solution? Don't really know. Campaigns require co-operation of local authorities, bookshops, tearooms or the like, so it might be hard to start from where we are. Perhaps the best first start would be a well researched but readable full-scale book (not a pamphlet) on Richard's connections with York - with lots of nice local illustrations - that could be sold in every bookshop in the city?
Marie
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Perhaps it is just that Christmas has taken over.
Jess From: Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []
Sent: 13/12/2016 09:59
To:
Subject: Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Absolutely! Perhaps the Minster would be a place to put some free leaflets explaining his relationship with it - that's if the Church would allow? H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 13 December 2016, 9:41
Subject: Re: Has York given up on Richard?
York is one of my favourite cities, though unfortunately I haven't been there for more than 10 years. I hope the Anthony Woodvilles aren't sapping it of its character. Maybe the Society could do something to promote Richard in York, especially since his profile has never been higher.
Nico
On Monday, 12 December 2016, 10:01, "hjnatdat@... []" <> wrote:
York at Christmas. White lights on Petergate that imitate sheet ice - brilliant! The carillion from the Minster playing carols, the Salvation Army in the marketplace, ghost tours beginning in the damp dusk. In the enormous Minster a solitary cello is playing 'Veni Emmanuel' whilst students from the uni drift up and down the aisles floating huge helium-filled stars and clouds - magic.But where is Richard in this town any longer? In Monksgate, I'm told. There's no mention of him in the Minster, where the Wall of Kings ends with a very lifelike Henry VI (all the others are clearly from the masons' imagination; Henry V is fat and has long curly hair). Did anything important ever happen in this place, asks a nearby visitor? Isn't its only royal connection that a son of Edward III is buried there? There's nothing in the brochure about York's most famous royal fan. (I wonder how many of the faces in the restored Great East Window, finished in 1472, are drawn from ones he knew). The gift shop clearly has an investment in paperweights, but if you hunt you can find one tiny boar badge to cater for the likes of us.What has happened to York? It's over twenty years since I did a tourist visit but then Richard was round every corner. Is it because his York is vanishing fast? The restaurants and shops resonate with the cut-glass southern accents of intellectuals and fashionistas trying to turn the place into the Cambridge of the North - they've even brought their muesli and bikes. Anthony Woodville has moved in. In the countryside they charge around in their Range Rovers and walk the Labrador on Sundays.Please, someone from York, tell me I'm wrong. Or have you all gone underground in despair? H
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Richard Liveth Yet
On 13 Dec 2016, at 16:53, Pamela Bain pbain@... [] <> wrote:
I agree and description made me want to visit!
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:49 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
Beautiful description, Hilary; thanks for sharing that. I do love York.
What amazed me when I visited the Minster Archives last year is how little even the archivists there understood about Richard's connections with York. They knew about his first visit as king, when his son was invested as Prince of Wales, but what I was actually looking for was more evidence concerning his visit in early May 1484, and I had a real job convincing them that I wasn't simply imagining he came back.
If that's what people in York believe, then of course a Henry VII museum would appear to be just as appropriate as a Richard III one.
The propaganda emanating from the Leicester reburial campaign - to the effect that Richard was almost never in York - seems to have been taken at face value by a lot of people, and has no doubt contributed.
And I'm afraid I have to add that not all Ricardians have sold themselves and their cause well in the city. An aggressive and demanding stance ain't going to win hearts and minds. Yes, I realise that the Ricardians who behave like that are very few in number, but a few stray cannonballs can do a lot of damage.
Solution? Don't really know. Campaigns require co-operation of local authorities, bookshops, tearooms or the like, so it might be hard to start from where we are. Perhaps the best first start would be a well researched but readable full-scale book (not a pamphlet) on Richard's connections with York - with lots of nice local illustrations - that could be sold in every bookshop in the city?
Marie
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Nico
On Wednesday, 14 December 2016, 8:56, "Paul Trevor Bale bale475@... []" <> wrote:
Well of course I have to remember the rainy day back in 1984 [I think it was 84] when the city celebrated the investiture of Edward, Prince of Wales with a huge procession to the Minster through the city, with hundreds in Medieval costume, and a celebratory service. In spite of the rain it was hugely enjoyable, as was the fair the city put on in conjunction with it.Paul
Richard Liveth Yet
On 13 Dec 2016, at 16:53, Pamela Bain pbain@... [] <> wrote:
I agree and description made me want to visit!
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:49 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
Beautiful description, Hilary; thanks for sharing that. I do love York.
What amazed me when I visited the Minster Archives last year is how little even the archivists there understood about Richard's connections with York. They knew about his first visit as king, when his son was invested as Prince of Wales, but what I was actually looking for was more evidence concerning his visit in early May 1484, and I had a real job convincing them that I wasn't simply imagining he came back.If that's what people in York believe, then of course a Henry VII museum would appear to be just as appropriate as a Richard III one.The propaganda emanating from the Leicester reburial campaign - to the effect that Richard was almost never in York - seems to have been taken at face value by a lot of people, and has no doubt contributed.And I'm afraid I have to add that not all Ricardians have sold themselves and their cause well in the city. An aggressive and demanding stance ain't going to win hearts and minds. Yes, I realise that the Ricardians who behave like that are very few in number, but a few stray cannonballs can do a lot of damage.
Solution? Don't really know. Campaigns require co-operation of local authorities, bookshops, tearooms or the like, so it might be hard to start from where we are. Perhaps the best first start would be a well researched but readable full-scale book (not a pamphlet) on Richard's connections with York - with lots of nice local illustrations - that could be sold in every bookshop in the city?
Marie
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2016, 9:41
Subject: Re: Has York given up on Richard?
I think the guidebook about Richard's links to York would be an excellent idea, and would sell well, especially if it is attractively presented with eye catching photos, maps etc.
Nico
On Wednesday, 14 December 2016, 8:56, "Paul Trevor Bale bale475@... []" <> wrote:
Well of course I have to remember the rainy day back in 1984 [I think it was 84] when the city celebrated the investiture of Edward, Prince of Wales with a huge procession to the Minster through the city, with hundreds in Medieval costume, and a celebratory service. In spite of the rain it was hugely enjoyable, as was the fair the city put on in conjunction with it.Paul
Richard Liveth Yet
On 13 Dec 2016, at 16:53, Pamela Bain pbain@... [] <> wrote:
I agree and description made me want to visit!
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:49 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
Beautiful description, Hilary; thanks for sharing that. I do love York.
What amazed me when I visited the Minster Archives last year is how little even the archivists there understood about Richard's connections with York. They knew about his first visit as king, when his son was invested as Prince of Wales, but what I was actually looking for was more evidence concerning his visit in early May 1484, and I had a real job convincing them that I wasn't simply imagining he came back.If that's what people in York believe, then of course a Henry VII museum would appear to be just as appropriate as a Richard III one.The propaganda emanating from the Leicester reburial campaign - to the effect that Richard was almost never in York - seems to have been taken at face value by a lot of people, and has no doubt contributed.And I'm afraid I have to add that not all Ricardians have sold themselves and their cause well in the city. An aggressive and demanding stance ain't going to win hearts and minds. Yes, I realise that the Ricardians who behave like that are very few in number, but a few stray cannonballs can do a lot of damage.
Solution? Don't really know. Campaigns require co-operation of local authorities, bookshops, tearooms or the like, so it might be hard to start from where we are. Perhaps the best first start would be a well researched but readable full-scale book (not a pamphlet) on Richard's connections with York - with lots of nice local illustrations - that could be sold in every bookshop in the city?
Marie
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
From: "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2016, 10:35
Subject: Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Thanks so much for your kind words everyone. Jan, I think the exhibition etc was designed to coincide with the burial? I agree with Marie; his links with the Minster have definitely been 'forgotten' by the authorities there, whether wilfully by the ex-Leicester Dean, or accidentally, though I don't know how you do that. The book is a lovely idea and I reckon would sell well but as usual it's finding the one to do it. In fact a guide to all Richard's links in North Yorkshire would be really good. H(who finds it sad that the Minster's own school celebrates Guy Fawkes and Morton's great nephew but doesn't seem to know who Richard was - in a quiz there they thought Edward IV was killed at Bannockburn!)
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2016, 9:41
Subject: Re: Has York given up on Richard?
I think the guidebook about Richard's links to York would be an excellent idea, and would sell well, especially if it is attractively presented with eye catching photos, maps etc.
Nico
On Wednesday, 14 December 2016, 8:56, "Paul Trevor Bale bale475@... []" <> wrote:
Well of course I have to remember the rainy day back in 1984 [I think it was 84] when the city celebrated the investiture of Edward, Prince of Wales with a huge procession to the Minster through the city, with hundreds in Medieval costume, and a celebratory service. In spite of the rain it was hugely enjoyable, as was the fair the city put on in conjunction with it.Paul
Richard Liveth Yet
On 13 Dec 2016, at 16:53, Pamela Bain pbain@... [] <> wrote:
I agree and description made me want to visit!
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:49 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
Beautiful description, Hilary; thanks for sharing that. I do love York.
What amazed me when I visited the Minster Archives last year is how little even the archivists there understood about Richard's connections with York. They knew about his first visit as king, when his son was invested as Prince of Wales, but what I was actually looking for was more evidence concerning his visit in early May 1484, and I had a real job convincing them that I wasn't simply imagining he came back.If that's what people in York believe, then of course a Henry VII museum would appear to be just as appropriate as a Richard III one.The propaganda emanating from the Leicester reburial campaign - to the effect that Richard was almost never in York - seems to have been taken at face value by a lot of people, and has no doubt contributed.And I'm afraid I have to add that not all Ricardians have sold themselves and their cause well in the city. An aggressive and demanding stance ain't going to win hearts and minds. Yes, I realise that the Ricardians who behave like that are very few in number, but a few stray cannonballs can do a lot of damage.
Solution? Don't really know. Campaigns require co-operation of local authorities, bookshops, tearooms or the like, so it might be hard to start from where we are. Perhaps the best first start would be a well researched but readable full-scale book (not a pamphlet) on Richard's connections with York - with lots of nice local illustrations - that could be sold in every bookshop in the city?
Marie
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
"I was in York last year and Richard was everywhere. The museum in the tower on the walls, and a huge exhibition in one of the museums.Perhaps it is just that Christmas has taken over."
Carol responds:
I was there in August 2014 and Richard, while not everywhere, was certainly present. Not to sound like an advertisement, but if you need a guide to show you the Ricardian connections in York and Yorkshire, the man to see is Alan (Al) Rowley at Yorkshires True Tours (no apostrophe for some reason). He's a fan of Richard's (and very antithetical toward Henry VIII for destroying all the abbeys).
In one of the musty old chapels in Yorkshire (not in York itself and not Fotheringhay), the woman who showed us around voluntarily stated that Richard III was a good king and not the monster he was depicted as being. I said, "I know," and told her that I was a member of the Richard III Society. She looked surprised but pleased, as if she had never heard of us but was glad to know we existed.
Be glad that York still celebrates Christmas. Here in Tucson, Arizona, (except in neighborhoods, which still put up lights), you're lucky to see a wreath or a sign reading "Season's Greetings." Store clerks don't dare wish you a Merry Christmas, only a generic "Happy Holidays." Admittedly, it's still a bit early, but I don't expect the situation to improve. It will probably get worse with "holiday" shoppers looking for last-minute "holiday" gifts. Meanwhile, I've put up a real Christmas tree and baked fruitcakes. Most Americans (90 percent) still celebrate Christmas in some form but are afraid to wish anyone else a Merry Christmas for fear of offending them.
Sorry to go off-track, but I do envy England its Christmas traditions (Cromwell's Puritans aside).
Carol
Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up on R
Gilda
> On Dec 14, 2016, at 6:14 PM, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:
>
> Jess wrote:
>
> "I was in York last year and Richard was everywhere. The museum in the tower on the walls, and a huge exhibition in one of the museums.Perhaps it is just that Christmas has taken over."
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I was there in August 2014 and Richard, while not everywhere, was certainly present. Not to sound like an advertisement, but if you need a guide to show you the Ricardian connections in York and Yorkshire, the man to see is Alan (Al) Rowley at Yorkshires True Tours (no apostrophe for some reason). He's a fan of Richard's (and very antithetical toward Henry VIII for destroying all the abbeys).
>
> In one of the musty old chapels in Yorkshire (not in York itself and not Fotheringhay), the woman who showed us around voluntarily stated that Richard III was a good king and not the monster he was depicted as being. I said, "I know," and told her that I was a member of the Richard III Society. She looked surprised but pleased, as if she had never heard of us but was glad to know we existed.
>
> Be glad that York still celebrates Christmas. Here in Tucson, Arizona, (except in neighborhoods, which still put up lights), you're lucky to see a wreath or a sign reading "Season's Greetings." Store clerks don't dare wish you a Merry Christmas, only a generic "Happy Holidays." Admittedly, it's still a bit early, but I don't expect the situation to improve. It will probably get worse with "holiday" shoppers looking for last-minute "holiday" gifts. Meanwhile, I've put up a real Christmas tree and baked fruitcakes. Most Americans (90 percent) still celebrate Christmas in some form but are afraid to wish anyone else a Merry Christmas for fear of offending them.
>
> Sorry to go off-track, but I do envy England its Christmas traditions (Cromwell's Puritans aside).
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: justcarol67@...
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
I send my Jewish friends Chanukah cards and they send me Christmas cards and we wish our Hindu friends a nice Diwalli.
What is the problem?
JessFrom: Gilda Elise gildaevf@... []
Sent: 15/12/2016 15:33
To:
Subject: Christmas was Re: Has York given up on Richard?
I've never run into anything like that, either here in Michigan, or in Phoenix, where I lived for over 50 years. Christmas was, and is, all over the place. And I've never had anyone be afraid to say Merry Christmas to me.
Gilda
> On Dec 14, 2016, at 6:14 PM, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:
>
> Jess wrote:
>
> "I was in York last year and Richard was everywhere. The museum in the tower on the walls, and a huge exhibition in one of the museums.Perhaps it is just that Christmas has taken over."
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I was there in August 2014 and Richard, while not everywhere, was certainly present. Not to sound like an advertisement, but if you need a guide to show you the Ricardian connections in York and Yorkshire, the man to see is Alan (Al) Rowley at Yorkshires True Tours (no apostrophe for some reason). He's a fan of Richard's (and very antithetical toward Henry VIII for destroying all the abbeys).
>
> In one of the musty old chapels in Yorkshire (not in York itself and not Fotheringhay), the woman who showed us around voluntarily stated that Richard III was a good king and not the monster he was depicted as being. I said, "I know," and told her that I was a member of the Richard III Society. She looked surprised but pleased, as if she had never heard of us but was glad to know we existed.
>
> Be glad that York still celebrates Christmas. Here in Tucson, Arizona, (except in neighborhoods, which still put up lights), you're lucky to see a wreath or a sign reading "Season's Greetings." Store clerks don't dare wish you a Merry Christmas, only a generic "Happy Holidays." Admittedly, it's still a bit early, but I don't expect the situation to improve. It will probably get worse with "holiday" shoppers looking for last-minute "holiday" gifts. Meanwhile, I've put up a real Christmas tree and baked fruitcakes. Most Americans (90 percent) still celebrate Christmas in some form but are afraid to wish anyone else a Merry Christmas for fear of offending them.
>
> Sorry to go off-track, but I do envy England its Christmas traditions (Cromwell's Puritans aside).
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: justcarol67@...
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
"That is such a shame. I don't think anyone would be upset to hear Merry Christmas being said. I send my Jewish friends Chanukah cards and they send me Christmas cards and we wish our Hindu friends a nice Diwalli. What is the problem?"
Carol responds:
I think the problem is that Christmas is considered (by the people who object to "Merry Christmas") to be a religious holiday (in fact, it is both religious and secular, depending on who celebrates it and how), and saying "Merry Christmas" might somehow offend someone who doesn't celebrate it. (A few people do make a fuss about it, so many businesses now try to be "inclusive" by saying "Happy holidays" instead. A few even refer to Christmas as "Holiday.") It's annoying to me to see advertisements with Christmas themes (even "peace,""joy," "merry and bright"), Christmas colors, Christmas music and decorations, but not a single mention of the word "Christmas." Richard would be appalled.
Carol
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
"I think the problem is that Christmas is considered (by the people who
object to "Merry Christmas") to be a religious holiday (in fact, it is both
religious and secular, depending on who celebrates it and how), and saying
"Merry Christmas" might somehow offend someone who doesn't celebrate it. (A
few people do make a fuss about it, so many businesses now try to be
"inclusive" by saying "Happy holidays" instead. A few even refer to
Christmas as "Holiday.") It's annoying to me to see advertisements with
Christmas themes (even "peace,""joy," "merry and bright"), Christmas colors,
Christmas music and decorations, but not a single mention of the word
"Christmas." Richard would be appalled."
Doug here:
"A few even refer to Christmas as 'Holiday'."
Apparently without knowing that "holiday" is merely a contraction for "holy
day"...
Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
It's only been a national holiday since the 1860s, when President Lincoln made it one. And many of the trappings of Christmas are of very recent origin - Santa's suit is Coca-Cola Red because Coca-Cola paid a lot of advertising money to make it that way.
Tamara
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
Gilda
> On Dec 18, 2016, at 1:04 PM, khafara@... [] <> wrote:
>
> The irony in America is that the Puritans *banned* Christmas celebrations because of their paganism that the early church fathers had hijacked and used to make Christmas popular in the first place. (Something that the "Jesus is the reason for the season" people choose to ignore. But hey, FOX News loves to talk about there being a war on Christmas when what's really occuring is widespread acknowledgment of the many winter celebrations that exist.)
>
> It's only been a national holiday since the 1860s, when President Lincoln made it one. And many of the trappings of Christmas are of very recent origin - Santa's suit is Coca-Cola Red because Coca-Cola paid a lot of advertising money to make it that way.
>
> Tamara
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: khafara@...
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
I believe you are thinking of Thanksgiving rather than Christmas. Christmas didn't become a national holiday in the U.S. until 1870. And yes, "Jesus is the reason for the season" in the U.S. because no one else' birthday (or winter celebration) is celebrated nationally on 12/25 since 1870.
Also, the idea that many of the trappings are of fairly recent origin, and that there were many winter celebrations over the last few thousand years, are indeed true, but to conclude that that has anything to do with the Christmas we now celebrate is to commit the genetic fallacy. That's my $0.02.
Dean
From: "khafara@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2016 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Christmas was Re: Has York given up on Richard?
The irony in America is that the Puritans *banned* Christmas celebrations because of their paganism that the early church fathers had hijacked and used to make Christmas popular in the first place. (Something that the "Jesus is the reason for the season" people choose to ignore. But hey, FOX News loves to talk about there being a war on Christmas when what's really occuring is widespread acknowledgment of the many winter celebrations that exist.)
It's only been a national holiday since the 1860s, when President Lincoln made it one. And many of the trappings of Christmas are of very recent origin - Santa's suit is Coca-Cola Red because Coca-Cola paid a lot of advertising money to make it that way.
Tamara
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Which goes to the fact that nobody has a clue as to when Jesus was born. The early church fathers, working four centuries after the fact, picked December 25, a date near the time of the Saturnalia and Sol Invictus ceremonies, for the same reason early Christian shrines were often built on the sites of earlier pagan temples: as a way to co-opt their power.
The season is in fact the reason for the winter celebrations. People needed and still need something to get them through the short days and long nights.
Tamara (who is going to stop now as this has veered far off the Ricardian path)
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
"The irony in America is that the Puritans *banned* Christmas celebrations because of their paganism that the early church fathers had hijacked and used to make Christmas popular in the first place. (Something that the "Jesus is the reason for the season" people choose to ignore. But hey, FOX News loves to talk about there being a war on Christmas when what's really occuring is widespread acknowledgment of the many winter celebrations that exist.)"
Carol responds:
Yes to your first sentence, but I don't quite agree with the rest of your post. Both groups tend to take their positions to the extreme and themselves too seriously. My point is that 90 percent of Americans celebrate Christmas as either a religious or a secular holiday and of the ten percent who don't, very few would actually be offended if they were wished a Merry Christmas (any more than I would be offended if someone wished me a Happy Hanukkah or Happy Kwanzaa). I find "Happy Holidays" annoying and sad at the same time. If a commercial is playing Christmas music and showing Christmas trees or Santa Claus, they might as well acknowledge that the holiday they're celebrating (or commercializing) is Christmas.
Really makes me want to live in fifteenth-century England.
Carol
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
"("Happy Holidays" is an expression that predates Bill O'Reilly and FOX News by several decades.)"
Carol responds:
Except that it originally meant "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year." As for the pagan and modern elements in our current celebration of Christmas, even in Richard's time, Christmas was a secular as well as a religious holiday--something for everyone, especially feasting and celebrating. When someone says "Merry Christmas," they're really saying either "happy gift-giving family time complete with feasting" or "peace on earth, goodwill to men--er, humankind." Nothing to object to either way as far as I can see.
Meanwhile, the old-fashioned way of putting up the Christmas tree on Christmas Eve and celebrating from Christmas till Epiphany (as in Richard's time and long after, Puritans aside) has gone by the wayside and most people think the Twelve Days of Christmas are already here.
Carol
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
I also prefer Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays, and fortunately it is still OK to say it here. Most British people are resistant PC assaults on Christmas. A few years ago, Birmingham council tried to rename Christmas 'Winterval,' so other religions would be offended, which didn't go down well and non Christians were the first to point out that they were not offended at all. Overall, I there seems to be a general backlash against extreme political correctness, which was probably at its worst in the 1990s, resulting in the wimpy snowflake generation who cry about election results and whine about 'safe spaces.' I wonder how these moaners would have fared in Richards time.
Nico
On Monday, 19 December 2016, 19:08, "justcarol67@... []" <> wrote:
Tamara wrote:
"("Happy Holidays" is an expression that predates Bill O'Reilly and FOX News by several decades.)"
Carol responds:
Except that it originally meant "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year." As for the pagan and modern elements in our current celebration of Christmas, even in Richard's time, Christmas was a secular as well as a religious holiday--something for everyone, especially feasting and celebrating. When someone says "Merry Christmas," they're really saying either "happy gift-giving family time complete with feasting" or "peace on earth, goodwill to men--er, humankind." Nothing to object to either way as far as I can see.
Meanwhile, the old-fashioned way of putting up the Christmas tree on Christmas Eve and celebrating from Christmas till Epiphany (as in Richard's time and long after, Puritans aside) has gone by the wayside and most people think the Twelve Days of Christmas are already here.
Carol
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Gilda
On Dec 20, 2016, at 6:36 AM, Nicholas Brown nico11238@... [] <> wrote:
I totally agree with you about the 12 days of Christmas. Christmas seems to be starting earlier and earlier every year, with a mad rush of consumerism starting around October and ending abruptly on Christmas day. This just sucks the life and soul out of what should be a lovely celebration. Christmas festivities in Richard's time and Tudor England seem quite joyful. I think I would have enjoyed it.
I also prefer Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays, and fortunately it is still OK to say it here. Most British people are resistant PC assaults on Christmas. A few years ago, Birmingham council tried to rename Christmas 'Winterval,' so other religions would be offended, which didn't go down well and non Christians were the first to point out that they were not offended at all. Overall, I there seems to be a general backlash against extreme political correctness, which was probably at its worst in the 1990s, resulting in the wimpy snowflake generation who cry about election results and whine about 'safe spaces.' I wonder how these moaners would have fared in Richards time.
Nico
On Monday, 19 December 2016, 19:08, "justcarol67@... []" <> wrote:
Tamara wrote:
"("Happy Holidays" is an expression that predates Bill O'Reilly and FOX News by several decades.)"
Carol responds:
Except that it originally meant "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year." As for the pagan and modern elements in our current celebration of Christmas, even in Richard's time, Christmas was a secular as well as a religious holiday--something for everyone, especially feasting and celebrating. When someone says "Merry Christmas," they're really saying either "happy gift-giving family time complete with feasting" or "peace on earth, goodwill to men--er, humankind." Nothing to object to either way as far as I can see.
Meanwhile, the old-fashioned way of putting up the Christmas tree on Christmas Eve and celebrating from Christmas till Epiphany (as in Richard's time and long after, Puritans aside) has gone by the wayside and most people think the Twelve Days of Christmas are already here.
Carol
Re: {Disarmed} Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Has York given up
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Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
I suppose it is whatever gets you through.
Jess From: Gilda Elise gildaevf@... []
Sent: 18/12/2016 20:08
To:
Subject: Re: Christmas was Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Like the Christmas tree having pagan origins and the date chosen because of the Winter solstice.
Gilda
> On Dec 18, 2016, at 1:04 PM, khafara@... [] <> wrote:
>
> The irony in America is that the Puritans *banned* Christmas celebrations because of their paganism that the early church fathers had hijacked and used to make Christmas popular in the first place. (Something that the "Jesus is the reason for the season" people choose to ignore. But hey, FOX News loves to talk about there being a war on Christmas when what's really occuring is widespread acknowledgment of the many winter celebrations that exist.)
>
> It's only been a national holiday since the 1860s, when President Lincoln made it one. And many of the trappings of Christmas are of very recent origin - Santa's suit is Coca-Cola Red because Coca-Cola paid a lot of advertising money to make it that way.
>
> Tamara
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: khafara@...
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
Re: Has York given up on Richard?
It's the time of year when you realise that HT and his gang didn't just kill a king, they obliterated and re-invented everything to do with the England that existed before August 1485, except the monasteries which they obliterated altogether. So for Christmas 'treats' in the UK we get Tudor music, Tudor buildings, another run of the 'six wives' (which is actually not bad) and Tudor food - did you know that roast goose and frumenty was invented by the Tudors - what did people do before that eat gruel? I suppose a 'Plantagenet Christmas' just wouldn't have the same ring, and the word 'medieval' is used to conjure up castles and ducking stools, a bit like the grey world of 'Game of Thrones'.
For two years the BBC has had to acknowledge that Richard is the historical figure in whom people have the most interest. Yet they, and the other channels have never done a single documentary about him or his time.
There, I've had my annual moan. Merry Christmas everyone! H
From: "justcarol67@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Monday, 19 December 2016, 19:08
Subject: Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Tamara wrote:
"("Happy Holidays" is an expression that predates Bill O'Reilly and FOX News by several decades.)"
Carol responds:
Except that it originally meant "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year." As for the pagan and modern elements in our current celebration of Christmas, even in Richard's time, Christmas was a secular as well as a religious holiday--something for everyone, especially feasting and celebrating. When someone says "Merry Christmas," they're really saying either "happy gift-giving family time complete with feasting" or "peace on earth, goodwill to men--er, humankind." Nothing to object to either way as far as I can see.
Meanwhile, the old-fashioned way of putting up the Christmas tree on Christmas Eve and celebrating from Christmas till Epiphany (as in Richard's time and long after, Puritans aside) has gone by the wayside and most people think the Twelve Days of Christmas are already here.
Carol
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
Meanwhile, here are some real, human casualties of the FOX-News-and-Donald-Trumped-up "War on Christmas".
A Jewish family has had to flee its home after they were (wrongly) accused of being behind the cancellation of a Lancaster County, Pennsylvania school's production of "A Christmas Carol":
http://lancasteronline.com/insider/jewish-family-leaves-lancaster-county-in-fear-after-being-blamed/article_435f7280-c7ba-11e6-8bad-e7ec3754fa69.html
-- A Hempfield elementary school is under fire for ending its longstanding production of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol, and a Jewish family has fled the county in fear because it's being blamed for the cancellation.
-- The unfolding controversy at Centerville Elementary School played out this week in national conservative media outlets including FOX News and Breitbart News Network, which portray the school's move as part of a war on Christmas.
-- The school, however, has said it put an end to the play this year because it took 15 to 20 hours of classroom time to produce.
-- The play has been a tradition at the school for more than three decades.
--The fifth-grader's parents, who spoke to LNP on the condition that they not be named, say they didn't complain about the play or request that it be canceled, but just asked in September if their child could be excused from the play, and were told yes.
-- Since the school announced the cancellation in November, however, they say the child has been harassed by classmates."
Tamara
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
"Exactly. Hence the pagan elements that Richard would have known quite well and which the Puritans tried to suppress: the wassail, the boar's head, the giving of gifts."
Well, at least we agree on that point. Since I read your article, I hope you will read this one, which shows that the War on Christmas in America is real and not invented by Fox News (which it predates). Christmas is still very much with us (mostly secularized) but dare not say its name. (Chapel Hill University's declaring the phrase "Christmas vacation," along with "husband," "wife," and"golf outing"(!) as "microaggression" shows just how far political correctness has gone toward suppressing free speech. It's sad, really. People have become far too sensitive and the laudable desire for tolerance has led to its opposite.
But, as you say, it's time to get back to Richard.
Happy whatever holiday you celebrate and Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah to everyone else
Carol
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
Nico
On Saturday, 24 December 2016, 3:09, "justcarol67@... []" <> wrote:
Tamara wrote:
"Exactly. Hence the pagan elements that Richard would have known quite well and which the Puritans tried to suppress: the wassail, the boar's head, the giving of gifts."
Well, at least we agree on that point. Since I read your article, I hope you will read this one, which shows that the War on Christmas in America is real and not invented by Fox News (which it predates). Christmas is still very much with us (mostly secularized) but dare not say its name. (Chapel Hill University's declaring the phrase "Christmas vacation," along with "husband," "wife," and"golf outing"(!) as "microaggression" shows just how far political correctness has gone toward suppressing free speech. It's sad, really. People have become far too sensitive and the laudable desire for tolerance has led to its opposite.
But, as you say, it's time to get back to Richard.
Happy whatever holiday you celebrate and Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah to everyone else
Carol
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
Re: Christmas was Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Has York given up
Sent: 25/12/2016 14:03
To:
Subject: Re: Christmas was Re: Has York given up on Richard?
Best wishes for Crimbo and a peaceful New Year..Eileen x
