St Georges's Chapel, Windsor, Childrens mysterious coffins.

St Georges's Chapel, Windsor, Childrens mysterious coffins.

2016-11-25 15:31:50
b.eileen25

As you are all probably aware of there has been a story hanging around for some time now that when Edward's vault/coffin was discovered in 1790, an adjoining vault was also discovered which contained the coffins of two children that were at the time thought to be those of Edward's children, George who died aged 2 and Mary who died aged 15. As I understand it a ledger stone was laid naming George. A drawing/diagram that was made at that time was on St George timeline clearing showing the ledger stone with the inscription. In 1810 in further work being made in the chapel the actual lead coffins of George and Mary were discovered in another part of the chapel. These were placed in the vault next to Edward and their mother EW. Thus the legend was born that there were two mysterious coffins in the vault and could these be the missing 'princes'. This was on the web page of the chapel and also an article in the Bulletin in September 2001 by someone who worked at the chapel in the capacity of a steward. In the article it stated that further investigation would be made about the vault and its contents but unfortunetaly this was never updated. I thought the story plausible i.e. could Buckingham have murdered the boys and Richard then had the boys secretly buried next to their father. With Marie's help we searched on line for the report made at the time which we found but were unable to download. I then asked the Archivist directly at St George's. They kindly responded. The crux of the matter is that the story on St Georges website is erronious.. When the secret vault was discovered it was not explored but was assumed to probably hold the remains of the Mary & George. If there are coffins in there it is not known when they date from and who they are. St Geroges webpage has now been edited to reflect this. We can now put to bed finally the misinformation that there are coffins of two mysterious children of Edward's in the St George's vault. Eileen

Re: St Georges's Chapel, Windsor, Childrens mysterious coffins.

2016-11-25 22:15:05
ricard1an
Well done Eileen and Marie. Excellent work.

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] St Georges's Chapel, Wind

2016-11-26 17:39:35
Doug Stamate

Eileen wrote:

As you are all probably aware of there has been a story hanging around for some time now that when Edward's vault/coffin was discovered in 1790, an adjoining vault was also discovered which contained the coffins of two children that were at the time thought to be those of Edward's children, George who died aged 2 and Mary who died aged 15. As I understand it a ledger stone was laid naming George. A drawing/diagram that was made at that time was on St George timeline clearing showing the ledger stone with the inscription. In 1810 in further work being made in the chapel the actual lead coffins of George and Mary were discovered in another part of the chapel. These were placed in the vault next to Edward and their mother EW. Thus the legend was born that there were two mysterious coffins in the vault and could these be the missing 'princes'. This was on the web page of the chapel and also an article in the Bulletin in Septemb er 2001 by someone who worked at the chapel in the capacity of a steward. In the article it stated that further investigation would be made about the vault and its contents but unfortunetaly this was never updated. I thought the story plausible i.e. could Buckingham have murdered the boys and Richard then had the boys secretly buried next to their father. With Marie's help we searched on line for the report made at the time which we found but were unable to download. I then asked the Archivist directly at St George's. They kindly responded. The crux of the matter is that the story on St Georges website is erronious.. When the secret vault was discovered it was not explored but was assumed to probably hold the remains of the Mary & George. If there are coffins in there it is not known when they date from and who they are. St Geroges webpage has now been edited to reflect this. We can now put to bed finally the mi sinformation that there are coffins of two mysterious children of Edward's in the St George's vault.

Doug here:

Thank you for this information. I'm sorry to say I was unaware of this (hangs head and scuffs toe).

Of course, as some will say, it doesn't exactly disprove the story, as noone knows exactly what else is in the vault; but it does, in my view anyway, reduce what had been an unverified story, to an unverified legend.

You know, just like More's?

Doug


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Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] St Georges's Chapel, Wind

2016-11-27 11:23:44
Hilary Jones
Yes Eileen - well done!! And Doug, I so agree. H(who is back now and trying to catch up)

From: "'Doug Stamate' destama@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 26 November 2016, 17:37
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} St Georges's Chapel, Windsor, Childrens mysterious coffins.

Eileen wrote: As you are all probably aware of there has been a story hanging around for some time now that when Edward's vault/coffin was discovered in 1790, an adjoining vault was also discovered which contained the coffins of two children that were at the time thought to be those of Edward's children, George who died aged 2 and Mary who died aged 15. As I understand it a ledger stone was laid naming George. A drawing/diagram that was made at that time was on St George timeline clearing showing the ledger stone with the inscription. In 1810 in further work being made in the chapel the actual lead coffins of George and Mary were discovered in another part of the chapel. These were placed in the vault next to Edward and their mother EW. Thus the legend was born that there were two mysterious coffins in the vault and could these be the missing 'princes'. This was on the web page of the chapel and also an article in the Bulletin in Septemb er 2001 by someone who worked at the chapel in the capacity of a steward. In the article it stated that further investigation would be made about the vault and its contents but unfortunetaly this was never updated. I thought the story plausible i.e. could Buckingham have murdered the boys and Richard then had the boys secretly buried next to their father. With Marie's help we searched on line for the report made at the time which we found but were unable to download. I then asked the Archivist directly at St George's. They kindly responded. The crux of the matter is that the story on St Georges website is erronious.. When the secret vault was discovered it was not explored but was assumed to probably hold the remains of the Mary & George. If there are coffins in there it is not known when they date from and who they are. St Geroges webpage has now been edited to reflect this. We can now put to bed finally the mi sinformation that there are coffins of two mysterious children of Edward's in the St George's vault. Doug here: Thank you for this information. I'm sorry to say I was unaware of this (hangs head and scuffs toe). Of course, as some will say, it doesn't exactly disprove the story, as noone knows exactly what else is in the vault; but it does, in my view anyway, reduce what had been an unverified story, to an unverified legend. You know, just like More's? Doug
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Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] St Georges's Chapel, Wind

2016-11-27 19:39:08
mariewalsh2003

Eileen did a brilliant job. I think it's amazing that she got St. George's Archives to look into this, get to the bottom of it and change their website with a single email.


And I hear what you're saying, Doug, but there is no now more evidence for the Princes being buried in St. George's Chapel than anywhere else in the country. This whole modern legend was based on the false notion that children's coffins had been seen.

It's not really a secret vault, just an unidentified one. A lot of the detail of who was buried where had been forgotten, and there are an astounding number of people known to have been buried in St. George's. Also, both Henry VII and Henry VIII were planning to be buried there at one point. So there's really nothing odd about there being a vault that hasn't been identified. Many, many articles have been written on the history of the chapel, and all the burials and chantry chapels - it's a minefield.

The other thing, when you think about it, is that the Princes' burial would not have been either very secret or very quick if a vault had first had to be constructed under St. George's Chapel to house them.


Marie

Re: St Georges's Chapel, Windsor, Childrens mysterious coffins.

2016-11-28 14:22:25
Hi Eileen,
This is fascinating - thank you for posting. Do you possibly have a link to the website you say has been updated, as I can't find it!
Many thanks
Amanda

Re: {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] St Georges

2016-11-28 15:33:07
Doug Stamate
Marie wrote:

Eileen did a brilliant job. I think it's amazing that she got St. George's Archives to look into this, get to the bottom of it and change their website with a single email.

Doug here:

I certainly agree! Getting an organization to alter something that undoubtedly attracted a lot of internet searches...well, good for them!

Marie continued:

And I hear what you're saying, Doug, but there is no now more evidence for the Princes being buried in St. George's Chapel than anywhere else in the country. This whole modern legend was based on the false notion that children's coffins had been seen.

It's not really a secret vault, just an unidentified one. A lot of the detail of who was buried where had been forgotten, and there are an astounding number of people known to have been buried in St. George's. Also, both Henry VII and Henry VIII were planning to be buried there at one point. So there's really nothing odd about there being a vault that hasn't been identified. Many, many articles have been written on the history of the chapel, and all the bu rials and chantry chapels - it's a minefield.

Doug here:

Apparently there's a website, but is there an actual organization that is responsible for discovering what actually is in the various vaults? Or is it off-limits as part of a Royal residence?

Marie concluded:

The other thing, when you think about it, is that the Princes' burial would not have been either very secret or very quick if a vault had first had to be constructed under St. George's Chapel to house them.

Doug here:

Again not unlike More's moving of vast amounts of dirt and stone, twice!, in the middle of the night, in a well-populated Royal residence and with no surviving witnesses!

Doug

Marie


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Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] St Georges's Chapel, Wind

2016-12-01 22:30:28
Just catching up on posts and can't believe what I am reading! If St George's HAS changed their website (I have yet to look), it is not due to a single email I can assure you. A friend of mine has been in correspondence with St Georges about these mystery coffins' for at least 12 months - perhaps even longer&&. with emails etc to prove it! I would respectfully suggest that perhaps it is due to her intricate groundwork, research and persistence in refusing to drop the subject with them that they have decided to now do something about it. The single email' sounds to me like the famous straw which broke the poor camel's back!

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] St Georges's Chapel, Wind

2016-12-01 22:42:31
mariewalsh2003

Very interesting indeed, Dianne.


Would your friend be happy to tell us more?

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] St Georges's Chapel, Wind

2016-12-02 12:28:18
b.eileen25
Thanks for messages regarding my message about the 'mystery coffins'. I have to give full thanks to Marie for aiding and abetting me on this. I enjoyed it thoroughly. I have been away for a week but I can expand more on information St Georges gave me to those that are interested. I have to say they have been more than helpful and also provided me with a 'timeline of references'.
1790 - two letters addressed to Earl of Leicester President of the Society of Antiquities written by J Carliol and transcripts of Henry Emlyns report on the restoration work of St Geroges Chapel. This is the section of Carliol's letter that concerns us - 'There is a vault near that of Edward lV in which, probably, his daughter Mary and 3rd son George, Duke of Bedford, who died young, lie interred, for we know, on Speed's authority, that George lieth buried at Windsor. This vault escaped the examination of the paviours'.
1796 - Vetusta Monumenta Vol lll (Marie and I located this online but were unable to 'open' it...theres a couple of hours of our lives we won't get back!) Account given on page 4 of the 1789 discovery of the vault of Edward IV and a second vault nearby thought to contain the bodies of Mary and George.
1812 - Britton, Architectural Antiquities of Gt Britain Vo. lll. description on page 45 of the finding of two coffins in what is now the Albert Memorial Chapel which were thought to contain the bodies of Mary and George.c1813 - memo regarding the removal of the coffins from what was then the Wolsey Chapel - now - the Albert Memorial Chapel to the north quire aisle. "On Friday 30th July 1813 the two coffins which were , upon very competent evidence supposed to contain the bodies of the infant Duke of Bedford and Princess Elizabeth (sic) son and daughter of Edward Vl were deposited in a vault (in the presence of the Dean) constructed for the purpose immediately under the stone which bears their names and adjoining the tomb of King Edward the 4th in the North Aisle of St George's Chapel"'The reference to Princess Elizabeth seems likely to be a mistake for two reasons, first Elizabeth consort to HVll is known to be buried in Westminster Abbey, secondly because Legge talks of placing the coffins 'under the stone which bears the names of George Duke of Bedford and Princess Mary'.
More later....Eileen

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] St Georges's Chapel, Wind

2016-12-02 12:59:25
b.eileen25
Continuation...
1813 - D&S Lyons, Magna Britannia vol l, pt l,Berkshire (reprint of an 1806 publication, page 471 and note: talks about the 1810 discovery of Prince George's coffin and the inscription on it - serenissimus princeps etc., describes the body supposed to be that of Princess Mary as 'enveloped in numerous folds of cere cloth closely packed with cords'...(eileen : I think we can probably discount the lurid stories found elsewhere that Mary's golden hair was everywhere and her eyes wide open and blue!)..
1831 - Lewis, A topographical dictionary of Gt Britain: the transfer of the two coffins (thought to contain the remains of George and Mary) from what is now the Albert Memorial Chapel to the North Quire Aisle.
1958 - S.M.Bond, The Monuments of St George's Chapel (Historical Monographs series No.12) describes the memorial stone placed in the Chapel for Princess Mary and Prince George in 1789 and briefly describes why they are thought to be buried there: "In Vestusta Monumenta Vol lll page 4, an account is given of the finding of, in 1789, in a vault near that of Edward 4th, of what were supposed to be the bodies of his daughter Mary and his third son George, Duke of Bedford. The slab then placed in the aisle by Emlyn was in the same style as his to Edward 4th. Britton, in his Architectural Antiquities off Gt Britain, 1812, Vol lll, page 45, described the later findings of two coffins in what is now called the Albert Memorial Chapel, which were also thought to contain the bodies of Mary and George. On 30 July, 1813 these two coffins were also put under the stone bearing their names )notes X.23". (eileen: what a shame while they were doing this they didn't check the contents of what the vault contained, if anything and make a note of it..but there you go..).
2005. Sutton, Visser-Fuchs and Griffiths, The Royal Funerals of the House of York at Windsorincludes accounts of the funerals of Edward lV, EW, Princess Mary and Prince George.
So there you go folks..that is how legends are born. I was quite sad to have my theory that Edward and Richard might be resting along with their parents all these years - at least it would have put to bed once and for all the nonsense about the bones in the urn - but nevertheless I am very pleased that this speculation can now be put to bed.
Eileen

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] St Georges's Chapel, Wind

2016-12-02 13:34:57
b.eileen25
In summary what sadly triggered of the misunderstanding, and understandably so, was by Henry Emlyn, about 1790, without the second vault being investigated, and merely assuming that it contained the remains of George and Mary, placed over it the ledger stone inscribed with the names of George and Mary. Without it being made clear on the St George's Chapel website that this vault had never been investigated and nothing was known about the contents if any, then this erroneous story has been hanging around. Its a great shame. However the current Archivist, who responded two days after my email enquiry has proved approachable, informative and more than helpful. Eileen
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