Who Murdered Henry VI?

Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-11 10:41:46
davetheslave44
Any thoughts about who Edward IV got to do the deposed king in?
I don't think it would have been a member of the nobility, or Edward's household, and Richard continues to get the flack from some regarding this.
Seems to me to have been a servant. Someone lower down the social stratum would have been likely doing hatchet jobs.


Re: Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-11 12:42:32
mariewalsh2003

Partly depends on the method used. Despite the legends, daggers are unlikely.

Could have been smothered or drowned, but if you don't want marks then you don't want a struggle, so the best and kindest option would have been to give him a sleeping draught first. (Wouldn't I make a good murderer?)


The sources on the whole suggest that, Warkworth notwithstanding, Henry didn't die until Edward and Richard were well ensconced in Kent with their men on the Fauconberg-mopping-up operations, so the murderer cannot have been someone they took with them (not much help since we do not have a list of the men they took). Ironically, the Yorkists still in the Tower would almost certainly have included those never suspected - i.e. Queen Elizabeth and her brother Rivers. (Could Warkworth's source possibly have told him that on the night in question the Queen's brother was in the Tower with many others, but he got it wrong?)

It would have to be someone Edward trusted to keep quiet, to the degree that he could confidently sound him out. it would be less obvious if the person worked at the Tower, but given the circumstances that may not have been necessary. We have the names of a couple of King Henry's attendants (Robert Radclyff and William Sayer, both esquires) from the final salary payments made to them, which happen to survive in an extant fragment of Tower accounts, and it might be possible to see if either of them got a big reward afterwards or alternatively came to an untimely end. All I know is that William Sayer was attending the Duke of Exeter in the Tower until autumn of 1471, but after that the record runs out.

And yet we have no evidence, and I really hesitate to cast suspicion on anyone without good cause.



Re: Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-11 12:53:48
alan thomas
This from Wikipedia:

King Henry VI was originally buried in Chertsey Abbey; then, in 1484, his body was moved to St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle, by Richard III. When the body of the king was found several centuries later, diggers found it to be five foot and nine inches. Light hair had been found to be covered in blood, with damage to the skull, showing that the king had indeed died due to violence [Wiki's Reference... http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/plantagenet_11.htm]

So it would seem he could have bludgeoned to death.

Alan


On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:42 PM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Partly depends on the method used. Despite  the legends, daggers are unlikely.

Could have been smothered or drowned, but if you don't want marks then you don't want a struggle, so the best and kindest option would have been to give him a sleeping draught first. (Wouldn't I make a good murderer?)


The sources on the whole suggest that, Warkworth notwithstanding, Henry  didn't die until Edward and Richard were well ensconced in Kent with their men on the Fauconberg-mopping-up operations, so the murderer cannot have been someone they took with them (not much help since we do not have a list of the men they took). Ironically, the Yorkists still in the Tower would almost certainly have included those never suspected - i.e. Queen Elizabeth and her brother Rivers. (Could Warkworth's source possibly have told him that on the night in question the Queen's brother was in the Tower with many others, but he got it wrong?)

It would have to be someone Edward trusted to keep quiet, to the degree that he could confidently sound him out. it would be less obvious if the person worked at the Tower, but given the circumstances that may not have been necessary. We have the names of a couple of King Henry's attendants (Robert Radclyff and William Sayer, both esquires) from the final salary payments made to them, which happen to survive in an extant fragment of Tower accounts, and it might be possible to see if either of them got a big reward afterwards or alternatively came to an untimely end. All I know is that William Sayer was attending the Duke of Exeter in the Tower until autumn of 1471, but after that the record runs out.

And yet we have no evidence, and I really hesitate to cast suspicion on anyone without good cause.




Re: Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-11 15:09:23
mariewalsh2003

Alan wrote:

King Henry VI was originally buried in Chertsey Abbey; then, in 1484, his body was moved to St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle, by Richard III. When the body of the king was found several centuries later, diggers found it to be five foot and nine inches. Light hair had been found to be covered in blood, with damage to the skull, showing that the king had indeed died due to violence [Wiki's Reference... http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/plantagenet_11.htm]
So it would seem he could have bludgeoned to death.


Marie replies:


I find it very unlikely, as the body was put on display in London with melancholy as the official cause of death.

I'm afraid the account by the antiquarian eye-witness William Henry St John Hope of the examination of Henry VI's remains in November 1910 is about as scientific and impartial as Tanner & Wright's report on the Bones in the Urn - in other words not very.

The bones were exhumed and examined in 1910. It was found that the body had been disarticulated at the time of reburial in 1484, the bones being laid in a small lead-lined casket placed inside a full-sized coffin. It also appeared that those preparing the body for reburial may have taken away some bones as religious relics (see below). So Henry was not reburied intact, which is important to bear in mind.

Dr. A. Macalister, Professor of Anatomy at Cambridge, was the expert who removed and conducted a visual examination of the bones, and his report, written the following day, says just this:

"The bones are those of a fairly strong man, aged between forty-five and fifty-five, who was at least 5 ft. 9 in. in height (he may have been an inch taller, but I give the minor limit).

The bones of the head were unfortunately much broken, but as far as they could be pieced together they were thin and light,, and belonged to a skull well-formed but small in proportion to the stature. Some of the roof bones (occipital and temporal, frontal and parietal) had become ossified together at the sutures. The few teeth found (second molar upper right, and first molar upper left, second bicuspid lower right) had their crowns very much worn down. The portion of one side of the lower jaw found had lost its teeth some time before death.

There were nearly all the bones of the trunk, of both legs, and of the left arm; but I found no part of the right arm.

From the relative positions occupied by the bones, as they lay in the leaden casket when opened, it was certain that the body had been dismembered when it was put in. If the body had been buried in the earth for some time and then exhumed, it would account for their being in the condition in which we found them. It might also account for the absence of the bones of the right arm, as well as the accidental enclosure of the left humerus of a small pig within the casket.

I am sorry that I can add nothing more. The state of the bones was so unsatisfactory that I could make no trustworthy measurements."


St John Hope remarks that Macalister had not commented on the fact that "the contents of the box were still somewhat moist. . . One other feature was noticeable, that to one of the pieces of the skull there was still attached some of the hair, which was brown in colour, save in one place where it was much darker and apparently matted in blood." Hope notes that there are extant accounts for the purchase of spices, wax and linen cloth for King Henry's burial, indicating that his body was embalmed and wrapped in cerecloth, but does not even suggest the possibility that the dark staining that he (but not Prof. Macalister) saw on the hair could have been from the embalming, or from the earth in which the remains had previously rested?

Personally I find this whole suggestion highly suspect. If there was really blood-stained hair on one of the bones of the skull, how did Professor Macalister fail to notice it? How could the stain be identified as blood without testing? Why was any such bloodstain - an absolute give-away - not washed off when the body was stripped and prepared for public display? Hope quotes Warkworth and Hall in his article, and was on his own admission seeking for evidence to prove that these actually were King Henry's bones as no inscription was found on the coffin.

By the by, the article reference is W. H. St. John Hope, 'The Discovery of the Remains of King Henry VI in St. George's Chapel, Windsor Castle', from Archaeologia, Vol 62, Part 2, 1911.



Re: Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-11 16:20:12
ricard1an
So all those so called historians, that state categorically that Richard was at the Tower the night that H6 died, are wrong? He was in Kent and so was Edward. Just proves that the trads do not do the research that you do Marie.
Mary

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-11 16:46:19
Doug Stamate
Dave wrote: Any thoughts about who Edward IV got to do the deposed king in?
I don't think it would have been a member of the nobility, or Edward's household, and Richard continues to get the flack from some regarding this.
Seems to me to have been a servant. Someone lower down the social stratum would have been likely doing hatchet jobs. Doug here: First off, there's no proof Henry VI was murdered, only rumor and accusations from ill-wishers of the Yorkists. He had no heir, his wife was also a prisoner and more importantly, with the death of Warwick, there no longer was anyone capable of returning him to the throne. Secondly, Henry was fifty years old at his death. That wasn't that great of an age, but he was definitely in the senior category when he died. He'd already had at least two breakdowns of undetermined type and cause. Nor do we have any idea of what state his physical health was in at the time of his death. Finally, the battle of Tewksbury took place on 4 May, 1471 and Henry died on 21 May, 1471. I don't think we have any reports of when Henry was informed of his son's death, or of how he took that news. FWIW, and unless/until we get more evidence one way or the other, I plump for Henry having died as the combined results of a stroke/heart attack, with possible further injuries acquired when he fell after suffering the stroke/heart attack. Coincidences do happen. Doug

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Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-11 17:27:38
justcarol67
Doug wrote:

First off, there's no proof Henry VI was murdered, only rumor and accusations from ill-wishers of the Yorkists. . . . Secondly, Henry was fifty years old at his death. That wasn't that great of an age, but he was definitely in the senior category when he died. He'd already had at least two breakdowns of undetermined type and cause. Nor do we have any idea of what state his physical health was in at the time of his death. Finally, the battle of Tewksbury took place on 4 May, 1471 and Henry died on 21 May, 1471. I don't think we have any reports of when Henry was informed of his son's death, or of how he took that news. FWIW, and unless/until we get more evidence one way or the other, I plump for Henry having died as the combined results of a stroke/heart attack, with possible further injuries acquired when he fell after suffering the stroke/heart attack. Coincidences do happen."

Carol responds:

Yes, they do. Historians try to second-guess Edward's motives and assume that, of course, he had Henry executed. That is possible, but a natural death is also possible, especially since Henry seems not to have taken care of himself (the missing teeth lost during his lifetime).

I find it interesting that Humphrey of Gloucester, who was a few years older (56) but presumably in better health, is usually assumed to have died of a stroke after just three days in prison, with rumors that he was poisoned ignored (because Henry VI was king?), the opposite of the view taken of Henry VI's death.

As for who performed the execution, if there was one, the Constable of the Tower would no doubt have delegated one of his men to do it. (Who executed George of Clarence? We don't know that, either.) I doubt that the executioner was a man of status.

Carol






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Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-11 18:33:54
b.eileen25
Returning to the bones of the 'princes' in the urn if I may..I read recently an interesting little book by Richard Unwin called Westminster Bones that suggests that the bones were a hoax and planted in 1674. This would explain why the bones were conveniently found in a place..at the foot of some stairs..as described by More (who then said that they had been moved).
Since reading that Ive taken another look at Helen Maurer's 'Whodunit' and see in her footnotes that she has put the same theory forward too..'footnote 30 - as for why the bones should have been discovered more or less where More said they were, it might be more profitable, if only in the interest of leaving no stone unturned to forget Richard, Henry and the late 15th century for the moment and concentrate upon Charles ll and the political pressures and perceived necessities of the 1670s. (I did this in part 2 of the Bones in the Tower Ricardian 9 March 1991.)'. Of course a couple of sets of bones would be easily available because of the many plague pits around from 1665. Of course at this rate we'll never know but its an interesting thought.
Marie: Ive had no success in trying to find part 2 of Helen Maurer's article on line. Would the Barton Library have a copy? Eileen

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-11 18:51:46
mariewalsh2003

Eileen wrote:

Marie: Ive had no success in trying to find part 2 of Helen Maurer's article on line. Would the Barton Library have a copy?


Marie:

Yes, indeed.

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-11 19:13:49
b.eileen25
Excellent..I believe I will find details of how to contact you regarding me borrowing this article on the back of the Bulletin..Good Old Barton Library!

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-12 00:26:45
mariewalsh2003

Doug and Carol, I agree that we have no proof Henry was murdered, and though the timing is highly suspicious coincidences do happen.


It seems that Henry had just heard of his son's death, because the official version of his death (in The Arrivall) was:

The certaintie of all whiche [the deaths at Tewkesbury] came to the knowledge of the sayd Henry, late called Kyng, being in the Tower of London; not havynge, afore that, knowledge of the saide matars, he toke it so great dispite, ire, indignation, that, of pure displeasure, and melencoly, he dyed the xxiij. day of the monithe of May."


If his skull had been crushed, either by bludgeoning or by a fall, it would surely have been remarked at the time. The idea did indeed arise some years later that the body had bled, but the idea was that this was because he had been stabbed to death with a dagger.

If it was murder, we can surely be confident that he would have been despatched by some means that left no visible signs.

Given that the remains, at the time of the reburial, consisted only of bones, perhaps they rattled about in their box during transit to Windsor, and that this could be what caused the break-up of the fragile skull?


I seem to recall that when I looked into Duke Humphrey's death, I discovered that the justices had been called to Bury St Edmunds, suggesting that the plan really had been to have Gloucester arrested and tried, not murdered.


Marie



Re: Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-12 06:44:57
davetheslave44
I agree that there is no proof regarding the circumstances of the deposed king's death. I wanted to draw attention to it because the ill-informed popular belief still, being circulated, which goes something like 'Henry VI was murdered on the orders of' (etc) or that 'members of the king's household were determined to see him removed.'

Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-12 15:39:53
Doug Stamate
Carol wrote:
"Yes, they do. Historians try to second-guess Edward's motives and assume
that, of course, he had Henry executed. That is possible, but a natural
death is also possible, especially since Henry seems not to have taken care
of himself (the missing teeth lost during his lifetime)."

Doug here:
I'd completely missed the implication of those lost teeth! From what I
understand about modern dental health, losing teeth, as opposed to having
them pulled for some reason or other, is usually indicative of some sort of
physical abnormality; ill-health, diet, etc.

Carol continued:
"I find it interesting that Humphrey of Gloucester, who was a few years
older (56) but presumably in better health, is usually assumed to have died
of a stroke after just three days in prison, with rumors that he was
poisoned ignored (because Henry VI was king?), the opposite of the view
taken of Henry VI's death."

Doug here:
I'm likely being cynical but, as Humphrey's death didn't benefit Richard and
accusations of Henry's murder hurt him, the subject of how the previous Duke
of Gloucester died never really caught the attention of the Tudor-era
chroniclers and "historians."

Carol concluded:
"As for who performed the execution, if there was one, the Constable of the
Tower would no doubt have delegated one of his men to do it. (Who executed
George of Clarence? We don't know that, either.) I doubt that the
executioner was a man of status."

Doug here:
Wouldn't any orders/instructions from the king, Edward, have over-ridden any
standing instructions of the Constable, Richard?
If, and it's only speculation, but what if the King, Edward, went behind the
Constable's, Richard, back in regards to Henry's execution? Edward may have
considered Henry's death to be a necessity but, knowing Richard's objections
(presuming he had them, of course), Edward decided to go around his brother?
After all, Edward was the King!
And it's not as he we don't have other examples of Edward's "cunning plans"
going astray...
Doug


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Re: {Disarmed} [Richard III Society Forum] Who Murdered Henry VI?

2016-11-13 17:06:54
justcarol67

Carol earlier:
"As for who performed the execution, if there was one, the Constable of the Tower would no doubt have delegated one of his men to do it. . . I doubt that the executioner was a man of status."

Doug responded:
Wouldn't any orders/instructions from the king, Edward, have over-ridden any standing instructions of the Constable, Richard?"

Carol again:

Sorry to be unclear. I agree that the execution, if any, could only have happened on Edward's orders. But I wasn't referring to Richard, the Lord High Constable of England, who does not seem to have been involved, later innuendo to the contrary. The Constable of the Tower was officially John Sutton, Baron Dudley, an old man in his eighties, who was (theoretically) in charge of the prisoners in the Tower. No doubt he had a deputy who carried out his actual duties. But even the deputy would only have supervised the execution if Edward ordered it. The executioner (or poisoner) would have been someone under his orders (just as the executioner of Charles I was not Cromwell or any of his Parliament cronies but someone hired to do the job). I don't think even the notorious Tiptoft actually killed the men he ordered executed.

Carol

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