Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?

Not Marie, but I'll jump in as fools rush in where angels fear to tread and all that. :-)

Can't state anything for sure about Alice -- the Weir novel is the only reference I was able to find to her possibly being Isabel Burgh's sister - and I don't know about Isabel Burgh being a nursemaid to Clarence's brood, but she definitely was Edward of Middleham's nurse at Middleham, under the supervision of Mistress Anne Idley, Edward's governess of the nursery.

Interestingly, there seem to be many more De Burghs than plain old Burghs in the post-Conquest history of the British Isles. The most famous batch of De Burghs were Norman-Irish lords and good Plantagenets, which I would think means that an invitation for John of Gloucester to go to Ireland after his father's death would not be utterly unlikely.

That reminds me: Here's the passage of Alison Weir's novel A Dangerous Inheritance wherein Weir references Isabel Burgh as being Edward's nurse:

https://books.google.com/books?id=TvpXcin96KYC&pg=PT54&lpg=PT54&dq=isabel+burgh&source=bl&ots=8vynNNyhJ-&sig=0rtHVk1GtWYI2ejipUj4uccksjI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFcQ6AEwDGoVChMIl82Cv7n0xwIVhk2SCh1HNQcr#v=onepage&q=isabel%20burgh&f=false

Tamara


---In , <hjnatdat@...> wrote :

I think it was Michael Hicks who postulated that Alice Burgh might be the mother of John of Gloucester because of a substantial amount given by Richard from Pontefract in 1474 to 'my beloved gentlewoman' for 'certain services and considerations'?

Whilst I was meandering round Yorkshire (on paper at least) I came across a candidate of that name. Now Burgh is quite an unusual name for this period; there was Sir Thomas Burgh of Gainsborough, but he had no Alices and they would have been too young, and Sir John Burgh of Mowthwy who had daughters, one of whom was married to Richard's Squire, Thomas Mytton, but no Alice. Myttton was so popular with Richard that he gave him Caus after Buckingham's death.

My Alice is the daughter of William Borough, Brough or Burgh of Richmond/Catterick Yorkshire and Ellen Pickering, daughter of Sir John Pickering. William Burgh died in 1462 and left several children, the eldest of whom married the daughter of Sir Christopher Conyers of Hornby. The Burghs were also were descended from the Haringtons and Radcliffes and married into the Metcalfe family so they were clearly in Richard's 'set'. Also I believe Clarence held land in Richmond?

Now there are problems with this Alice. Firstly, as her mother died in 1446 and she is listed as the second youngest child, she must have been quite a bit older than Richard - but then we know that Edward liked older (but usually married) women. But secondly she was - the Prioress of Ellerton Priory in Swaledale; so near to Richard again, but not exactly eligible.

So we have a number of scenarios:

1. She isn't the right Alice, but Alice was a 'gentlewoman' and I have yet to stumble on another, let alone in the area. I don't think Richard's Alice would have worked at the local tavern.

2. She indeed had John of Gloucester in the late 1460s and then took the veil. At least one member of the Conyers family had been Prioress there. But if Richard was giving her money wouldn't he have to give it to the Abbey?

3. She might have been nothing to do with John and thus being given money for some service the Abbey had rendered to Richard or Anne and the whole John thing is a red herrring. Would you give money to a Prioress using her name and would you call her a 'beloved gentlewoman' if she was indeed a gentlewoman and related to your friends? Over to you Marie.

Incidentally Alison Weir (!) makes her a nurse at Middleham and gives her a sister Isabel who was nurse to the Clarence children. Sir John Burgh did have a daughter called Isabel who married Sir John Lingen, Sheriff of Herefordshire but no Alice so that could have been the Clarence Isabel.

My searches about the Priory have yielded little yet. H

Thanks Tamara. What I crucially forgot to add was that we don't know when Alice became a Prioress. It could have been post 1474 or even post 1485. If that's the case, this Alice, as a local and in Richard's circle, would qualify to be Edward's nurse - but she also had a cousin Alice who was the daughter of her father's brother Christopher and far too old to be Richard's mistress but could have been the nurse (think of the age of Ankarette Twynyho).

You're right about the de Burghs. Until the previously century they were what today we'd call big in government circles, including some being Earl of Ulster and another marrying Robert Bruce. By this time they seem to have petered down to Sir Thomas of Gainsborough and the Sir John I mentioned. Alice isn't a rare name, but it's not a common one either like Anne, Elizabeth and Isabel, but by rights if Alice was a gentlewoman then I should bump into her somewhere and this one ticks all the boxes. Of course, that by no means says she was the mother of John of Gloucester. H

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 13/9/15, khafara@... [] <> wrote:

Subject: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?
To:
Date: Sunday, 13 September, 2015, 22:52


 










Not Marie, but I'll jump in as
fools rush in where angels fear to tread and all that. 
:-)

Can't state anything
for sure about Alice -- the Weir novel is the only reference
I was able to find to her possibly being Isabel Burgh's
sister - and I don't know about Isabel Burgh being a
nursemaid to Clarence's brood, but she definitely was
Edward of Middleham's nurse at Middleham, under the
supervision of Mistress Anne Idley, Edward's governess
of the nursery.

Interestingly, there seem to be many more De
Burghs than plain old Burghs in the post-Conquest history of
the British Isles.  The most famous batch of De Burghs were
Norman-Irish lords and good Plantagenets, which I would
think means that an invitation for John of Gloucester to go
to Ireland after his father's death would not be utterly
unlikely.

That reminds
me:  Here's the passage of Alison Weir's novel
A Dangerous
Inheritance wherein Weir references Isabel Burgh as
being Edward's nurse:

https://books.google.com/books?id=TvpXcin96KYC&pg=PT54&lpg=PT54&dq=isabel+burgh&source=bl&ots=8vynNNyhJ-&sig=0rtHVk1GtWYI2ejipUj4uccksjI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFcQ6AEwDGoVChMIl82Cv7n0xwIVhk2SCh1HNQcr#v=onepage&q=isabel%20burgh&f=false

Tamara


---In
, <hjnatdat@...>
wrote :

 I think it was
Michael Hicks who postulated that Alice Burgh might be the
mother of John of Gloucester because of a substantial amount
given by Richard from Pontefract in 1474 to 'my beloved
gentlewoman' for  'certain services and
considerations'?Whilst I was meandering round
Yorkshire (on paper at least)  I came across a candidate of
that name. Now Burgh is quite an unusual name for this
period; there was Sir Thomas Burgh of Gainsborough, but he
had no Alices and they would have been too young, and Sir
John Burgh of  Mowthwy who had daughters, one of whom was
married to Richard's Squire, Thomas Mytton, but no
Alice. Myttton was so popular with Richard that he gave him
Caus after Buckingham's death. My Alice is the
daughter of William Borough, Brough or Burgh of
Richmond/Catterick Yorkshire and Ellen Pickering, daughter
of Sir John Pickering. William Burgh died in 1462 and left
several children, the eldest of whom married the daughter of
Sir Christopher Conyers of Hornby. The Burghs were also were
descended from the Haringtons and Radcliffes and married
into the Metcalfe family so they were clearly in
Richard's 'set'. Also I believe Clarence held
land in Richmond?Now there are problems with this
Alice. Firstly, as her mother died in 1446 and she is listed
as the second youngest child, she must have been quite a bit
older than Richard - but then we know that Edward liked
older (but usually married) women. But secondly she was -
the Prioress of Ellerton Priory in Swaledale; so near to
Richard again, but not exactly eligible.So we have a
number of scenarios:1. She isn't the right Alice,
but Alice was a 'gentlewoman' and I have yet to
stumble on another, let alone in the area. I don't think
Richard's Alice would have worked at the local
tavern.2. She indeed had John of Gloucester in the
late 1460s and then took the veil. At least one member of
the Conyers family had been Prioress there. But if Richard
was giving her money wouldn't he have to give it to the
Abbey?3. She might have been nothing to do with John
and thus being given money for some service the Abbey had
rendered to Richard or Anne and the whole John thing is a
red herrring. Would you give money to a Prioress using her
name and would you call her a 'beloved gentlewoman'
if she was indeed a gentlewoman and related to your friends?
Over to you Marie.Incidentally Alison Weir (!) makes
her a nurse at Middleham and gives her a sister Isabel who
was nurse to the Clarence children. Sir John Burgh did have
a daughter called Isabel who married Sir John Lingen,
Sheriff of Herefordshire but no Alice so that could have
been the Clarence Isabel.My searches about the Priory
have yielded little yet.
H   









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Mistress Anne Idley with connections to MB. Jenny Powys Lybbe gave a talk to the Triennial Conference a few years ago, and suggested that she could have been responsible for Edward of Middleham's death on MB's behalf. She said that it was a theory and obviously she didn't have any definite evidence. Interesting theory.
Mary

How nice of you to remember my short Talk at Cirencester many years ago. No, there never could be any evidence of course, it just interested me that there was this link between MB and Edward's nursery. None of the things she had done in the hopes of disrupting Richard had really worked, that is to say Richard rose again after the shocks of Hastings, Buckingham etc. But after the death of Edward of Middleham it seems to me he was never the same man again. Which I understand having lost my son. And on MB, yes I had of course read 'The King's Mother' which someone on here recommended to me the other day! Now then, I have heard -and would love to know if there is anything in it- that MB is not in her tomb in Westminster Abbey. If she is not there, where would she be? Well the next most likely place would seem to be somewhere around Dorchester. I believe her parents may be buried there? Anyone know?
Jennie

I remember reading it in the Ricardian Bulletin and it interested me. It has always puzzled me that all the people, who stood in the way of Tudor claiming the throne, were dead within two and a half years Having read R.E Collins theory that the Woodvilles poisoned Edward IV your theory seemed feasible.
I didn't realize that it is thought that MB is not buried in her tomb.
Mary

Interesting points on the possible identity of Alice Burgh, Hilary. As you say, a yearly grant of £ 20 in 1474 is not necessarily evidence of anything and some might say it's a pretty petty sum for the mother of a royal offspring, however baseborn, even for the standards of the day: Richard spent thrice as much only on documented Christmas gifts for Anne only in 1476 (could it hint to Edward being born that year?). Furthermore, why wait all those years when most historians agree both John and Katherine were born before Richard's marriage in 1472?
Anyhow, Richard's illegitimate children had a mother (one each?), the fact that her/their name/s got lost is a good indication of the little importance she/they held in his life after his teen years.
Ps I do not know where MB's corpse lies, but I hope she is burning in hell. Sorry, it's just the way I feel about her. Mac

Ive never been able to locate a copy of that article disappointingly as Ive wondered about EoM death...it was just so very convenient Ive at least remained openminded about it.
Re MB body. I would be surprised if she wasn't where she was supposed to be..i.e. in the vault below her monument at Westminster Abbey. She died at Cheyneygates, the abbots house in the Abbey complex..the same house as EW rented during the time she spent in sanctuary there..she was then moved to the Abbey refrectory until her burial in the Henry Vll chapel..so died and buried in the same small area..and why build such an expensive tomb/monument if she wasnt there. Maybe some confusion because Stanley gave instructions for an effigy of his wife to be placed on his tomb at Burscough Priory..how very, very touching..
I have also taken a look at my copy of Westminster Abbey by Dean Stanley who conducted a search of the Henry Vll chapel and its vaults in the 19th century..he was looking for James lst..who was eventually found snucked in with HT and EoY...but can find nothing on whether the vault beneath MB's monument was searched. Maybe James had turned up so they ended the search there and then...Eileen

Just a thought, but wasn't there something about MB wanting to be buried with Henry's father? But she didn't get her wish and was interred in Westminster instead? Maybe she actually got her way after all and is in with Edmund Tudor? Although, I know his remains were moved to St David's Cathedral at the Dissolution, so presumably her presence with him would have been noticed. Sandra From: mailto: Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 2:11 PM To: Subject: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?

Ive never been able to locate a copy of that article disappointingly as Ive wondered about EoM death...it was just so very convenient Ive at least remained openminded about it. Re MB body. I would be surprised if she wasn't where she was supposed to be..i.e. in the vault below her monument at Westminster Abbey. She died at Cheyneygates, the abbots house in the Abbey complex..the same house as EW rented during the time she spent in sanctuary there..she was then moved to the Abbey refrectory until her burial in the Henry Vll chapel..so died and buried in the same small area..and why build such an expensive tomb/monument if she wasnt there. Maybe some confusion because Stanley gave instructions for an effigy of his wife to be placed on his tomb at Burscough Priory..how very, very touching.. I have also taken a look at my copy of Westminster Abbey by Dean Stanley who conducted a search of the Henry Vll chapel and its vaults in the 19th century..he was looking for James lst..who was eventually found snucked in with HT and EoY...but can find nothing on whether the vault beneath MB's monument was searched. Maybe James had turned up so they ended the search there and then...Eileen

Strangely enough I did wonder whether Alice, if she was Prioress at this point, had something to with care of Anne and pregnancies that we don't know about. Four years is a very long time to conceive a child in the fifteenth century, so she could have lost others. We know that Isabel went to the Tewkesbury infirmary for the confinement of Richard her last child so perhaps perhaps Anne was put in similar care for a pregnancy that went wrong? I don't read anything into 'beloved' gentlewoman; that seems to be fifteenth century terminology for someone who was important to you - like John Howard was Richard's 'beloved cousin'.
As for MB, as 'My Lady the King's Mother' I can't see her wanting to be anywhere other than with the King who endorsed her status. Does anyone know where Buckingham was buried? H
From: "mac.thirty@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2015, 21:08
Subject: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?

Interesting points on the possible identity of Alice Burgh, Hilary. As you say, a yearly grant of £ 20 in 1474 is not necessarily evidence of anything and some might say it's a pretty petty sum for the mother of a royal offspring, however baseborn, even for the standards of the day: Richard spent thrice as much only on documented Christmas gifts for Anne only in 1476 (could it hint to Edward being born that year?). Furthermore, why wait all those years when most historians agree both John and Katherine were born before Richard's marriage in 1472?
Anyhow, Richard's illegitimate children had a mother (one each?), the fact that her/their name/s got lost is a good indication of the little importance she/they held in his life after his teen years.
Ps I do not know where MB's corpse lies, but I hope she is burning in hell. Sorry, it's just the way I feel about her. Mac

According to Jones and Underwood..The Kings Mother..she asked to be buried next to Edmund Tudor in her Will of 1472 but her last will she requested Westminster Abbey..i read somewhere, prob the same book, that she made a new will every year. Of course her boy building his fabulous new chapel at Westminster must have changed her mind..in fact its a wonder she didn't request to be buried in the same vault....
I wonder if they plugged someone in with her at a later stage as all the vaults seem to have extra bodies in them...i suppose it saved money...a lotta lotta money...Eileen

I suppose she had her own chapel like Henry until they bunged Mary Queen of Scots in there and stole her thunder :) H

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 17/9/15, cherryripe.eileenb@... [] <> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?
To:
Date: Thursday, 17 September, 2015, 16:39


 









According to Jones and Underwood..The Kings
Mother..she asked to be buried next to Edmund Tudor in her
Will of 1472 but her last will she requested Westminster
Abbey..i read somewhere, prob the same book, that she made a
new will every year.  Of course her boy building his
fabulous new chapel at Westminster must have changed her
mind..in fact its a wonder she didn't request to be
buried in the same vault....
I wonder if they plugged someone in
with her at a later stage as all the vaults seem to have
extra bodies in them...i suppose it saved money...a lotta
lotta money...Eileen









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Mary Queen of Scots shares her vault with Queen Anne's children/babes..ahhh...Anne of Denmark has a vault to herself with an empty space beside her for James..but in Dean Stanley's time when they were doing a tidying up they realised little Jimmy was missing..thats when they did the search and as we now know where he was all the time..it all sounds very muddled if you ask me..
But I dare say they may not have DARED shove anyone in with MB..one look of that stern face and they probably would have worried about getting haunted...

I was sure I'd read it somewhere. Thank you, Eileen. From: mailto: Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 4:39 PM To: Subject: Re: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?

According to Jones and Underwood..The Kings Mother..she asked to be buried next to Edmund Tudor in her Will of 1472 but her last will she requested Westminster Abbey..i read somewhere, prob the same book, that she made a new will every year. Of course her boy building his fabulous new chapel at Westminster must have changed her mind..in fact its a wonder she didn't request to be buried in the same vault.... I wonder if they plugged someone in with her at a later stage as all the vaults seem to have extra bodies in them...i suppose it saved money...a lotta lotta money...Eileen

thats ok Sandra...Im surprised she had such fond memories of someone who impregnated her when she was 13...

Ah, but the resultant child was her beloved Henry, and for that she would be eternally grateful to Edmund. That's why I wondered about her burial choice. From: mailto: Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 5:43 PM To: Subject: Re: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?

thats ok Sandra...Im surprised she had such fond memories of someone who impregnated her when she was 13...

I have also long found that curious.........
...........From: cherryripe.eileenb@... []
Sent: 17/09/2015 17:46
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?

thats ok Sandra...Im surprised she had such fond memories of someone who impregnated her when she was 13...

I can't get my head round the Abbey downstairs. Is it like a series of catacombs or do you have to dig down from the main floor for the vaults? H
From: "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 17 September 2015, 17:32
Subject: Re: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?

Mary Queen of Scots shares her vault with Queen Anne's children/babes..ahhh...Anne of Denmark has a vault to herself with an empty space beside her for James..but in Dean Stanley's time when they were doing a tidying up they realised little Jimmy was missing..thats when they did the search and as we now know where he was all the time..it all sounds very muddled if you ask me..
But I dare say they may not have DARED shove anyone in with MB..one look of that stern face and they probably would have worried about getting haunted...

Im not an expert Hilary..my interest is really the monuments/tombs..but regarding the Henry Vll Chapel I presume when someone was going to be buried there they then dug down and built the vaults to house the bods and then the tomb/monument was placed on top. It does vary though in other parts of the Abbey..Westminster and others...in that in some cases..such as Richard ll the bod was placed inside the tomb itself. The naughty school boys from Westminster School used to reach in and nick parts of him...Recently Blanche Mortimers coffin was found inside her monument at Much Wenlock during renovations which the experts reckoned was rare. .
Im puzzled about Anne Neville..as she is in a small area by the south door leading into St Edwards chapel. Presumably she is in a vault too because a lead coffin was found in that area but not investigated. As also another Queen Anne was buried there...Anne of Cleaves..its a bit unclear if that was her coffin.
To be honest it all sounds a bit shambolic...
Eileen

That was what I thought too Eileen. Didn't they discover George VI in a 'corridor' at St George's Windsor; he'd never been moved to his final tomb?There's a good article on one of the Anne Boleyn sites about Victorian excavation of St Peter ad Vincula (to put in a new floor). They found, amongst others, Anne herself (in the arrow box) and Margaret Pole who was found to be tall for a woman. That rather contradicts JAH's claim that George and Isabel were small.I too love monuments. I've spent many a happy hour in a country churchyard. Such a shame that most churches are locked these days. H

From: "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, 18 September 2015, 16:01
Subject: Re: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?

Im not an expert Hilary..my interest is really the monuments/tombs..but regarding the Henry Vll Chapel I presume when someone was going to be buried there they then dug down and built the vaults to house the bods and then the tomb/monument was placed on top. It does vary though in other parts of the Abbey..Westminster and others...in that in some cases..such as Richard ll the bod was placed inside the tomb itself. The naughty school boys from Westminster School used to reach in and nick parts of him...Recently Blanche Mortimers coffin was found inside her monument at Much Wenlock during renovations which the experts reckoned was rare. .
Im puzzled about Anne Neville..as she is in a small area by the south door leading into St Edwards chapel. Presumably she is in a vault too because a lead coffin was found in that area but not investigated. As also another Queen Anne was buried there...Anne of Cleaves..its a bit unclear if that was her coffin.
To be honest it all sounds a bit shambolic...
Eileen

Me too.........can't beat a country churchyard!

JessFrom: Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []
Sent: 19/09/2015 09:53
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?

That was what I thought too Eileen. Didn't they discover George VI in a 'corridor' at St George's Windsor; he'd never been moved to his final tomb?There's a good article on one of the Anne Boleyn sites about Victorian excavation of St Peter ad Vincula (to put in a new floor). They found, amongst others, Anne herself (in the arrow box) and Margaret Pole who was found to be tall for a woman. That rather contradicts JAH's claim that George and Isabel were small.I too love monuments. I've spent many a happy hour in a country churchyard. Such a shame that most churches are locked these days. H

From: "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, 18 September 2015, 16:01
Subject: Re: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?

Im not an expert Hilary..my interest is really the monuments/tombs..but regarding the Henry Vll Chapel I presume when someone was going to be buried there they then dug down and built the vaults to house the bods and then the tomb/monument was placed on top. It does vary though in other parts of the Abbey..Westminster and others...in that in some cases..such as Richard ll the bod was placed inside the tomb itself. The naughty school boys from Westminster School used to reach in and nick parts of him...Recently Blanche Mortimers coffin was found inside her monument at Much Wenlock during renovations which the experts reckoned was rare. .
Im puzzled about Anne Neville..as she is in a small area by the south door leading into St Edwards chapel. Presumably she is in a vault too because a lead coffin was found in that area but not investigated. As also another Queen Anne was buried there...Anne of Cleaves..its a bit unclear if that was her coffin.
To be honest it all sounds a bit shambolic...
Eileen

We're very, very lucky that we still have so many left.....the Blitz, fires, Henry Vlll, the Georgians etc., The church in the village where I now live had a medieval rood screen taken down and destroyed in the 1950s...it breaks your heart to think about it...Eileen

Isn't it sad that monuments are no longer safe in most countries? I find them to be wonderful.



On Sep 19, 2015, at 3:53 AM, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

That was what I thought too Eileen. Didn't they discover George VI in a 'corridor' at St George's Windsor; he'd never been moved to his final tomb? There's a good article on one of the Anne Boleyn sites about Victorian excavation of St Peter ad Vincula (to put in a new floor). They found, amongst others, Anne herself (in the arrow box) and Margaret Pole who was found to be tall for a woman. That rather contradicts JAH's claim that George and Isabel were small. I too love monuments. I've spent many a happy hour in a country churchyard. Such a shame that most churches are locked these days. H

From: "cherryripe.eileenb@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, 18 September 2015, 16:01
Subject: Re: Re: Is this 'the' Alice Burgh?

Im not an expert Hilary..my interest is really the monuments/tombs..but regarding the Henry Vll Chapel I presume when someone was going to be buried there they then dug down and built the vaults to house the bods and then the tomb/monument was placed on top. It does vary though in other parts of the Abbey..Westminster and others...in that in some cases..such as Richard ll the bod was placed inside the tomb itself. The naughty school boys from Westminster School used to reach in and nick parts of him...Recently Blanche Mortimers coffin was found inside her monument at Much Wenlock during renovations which the experts reckoned was rare. .
Im puzzled about Anne Neville..as she is in a small area by the south door leading into St Edwards chapel. Presumably she is in a vault too because a lead coffin was found in that area but not investigated. As also another Queen Anne was buried there...Anne of Cleaves..its a bit unclear if that was her coffin.
To be honest it all sounds a bit shambolic...
Eileen