Hello Marie!

You wrote: So I can only presume that on 18th July
... Dr. Argentine was still in attendance on Edward V
in the Tower. Or am I being naive?

***

Not if Richard and his supporters had no intention of
killing the nephews, IMO.

Is there anywhere besides Harley 433 to look for a
record of Dr. Argentine's last payment? Where and
when did Dr. Argentine show up after he left Edward V?
What else is written about him?

I should look up the answers myself, but it will be
awhile before I get a chance. I'd appreciate anything
that anyone on the list can share.

TIA!

Marion

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--- In , marion davis
<phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> Hello Marie!
>
> You wrote: So I can only presume that on 18th July
> ... Dr. Argentine was still in attendance on Edward V
> in the Tower. Or am I being naive?
>
> ***
>
> Not if Richard and his supporters had no intention of
> killing the nephews, IMO.
>
> Is there anywhere besides Harley 433 to look for a
> record of Dr. Argentine's last payment? Where and
> when did Dr. Argentine show up after he left Edward V?
> What else is written about him?
>
> I should look up the answers myself, but it will be
> awhile before I get a chance. I'd appreciate anything
> that anyone on the list can share.
>
> TIA!
>
> Marion

Thinking about it further, I'm not sure the entry tells us very much.
Evidently the men paid off on 18th July had by then already left
Edward V's service. All we know is that Argentine was the last of his
old servants to go. But his absence from the list of July 18 may have
been because he was still in service, or because he had already left
the country. After all, there is no final pay-off for him anywhere in
Harley 433. As far as I can make out there is no evidence as to
precisely when Argentine left England, only that he met Mancini in
France before he wrote his 'Occupatione', which was finished in early
December.
Whenever Argentine was dismissed, it seems likely he went abroad
pretty much straight afterwards, which would perhaps account for the
lack of the final payment in arrears. But if this is the case then we
can't tell whether or not he was still with the ex-king on July 18th.
My feeling is that the first change of personnel may have taken place
after Hastings' death, as Mancini and Tudor writers say, but is
unlikely to have been significant as (contrary to their version), the
Duke of York was still in sanctuary at that time and a) extreme
measures would have made the Queen very reluctant to give up her
second son, and b) Stallworth's letter, written on 21st, mentions
nothing of this sort - indeed he maintained that Richard Duke of York
was 'merry'. Perhaps Edward's household was scaled down after he was
deposed, and maybe Richard changed some of the remaining personnel
for security reasons before he left London for Greenwich, the last
being dismissed in response to the early rescue conspiracies.

This is, of course, always assuming that the Princes were still alive
at that time, which is why it would have been so nice to have had
some evidence of Argentine's movements. However, for those who favour
the idea the Richard murdered the princes before he granted Howard
the duchy of Norfolk (which was 28th June), it makes life rather
difficult. They have to fit the whole phase of the princes being
gradually withdrawn, and their servants dismissed piecemeal, between
21st and 28th June.

Incidentally, I found an intriguing little entry in Harley 433. It
seems to have been written round about the 10th October 1483, and is
a warrant to one of the Receivers in the West Country to pay Richard
Ratcliff 500 marks before next Candlemas (2nd February), "the same to
be employed in such wise as we have commanded him by mouth". Two
things interested me: firstly, this is the only entry I've come
across so far which chooses not to commit the purpose of the
expenditure to writing. Secondly, the whole entry has been crossed
through.
Richard heard of Buckingham's rebellion the very next day.

Marie


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