Richard III Research and Discussion Archive

It may be of interest to some of you to view an authenticated 16th century painting of Richard III that is currently offered on ebay.
The item number is 924992269.

Julie

Thanks Julie - whilst it's not my fave R3 painting by any means, it
was nice to see such a decent presentation of the thing. If only I
had a private fortune...(sigh). I suppose Laura will now remind us
we can all have a large but much cheaper pictorial representation of
Richard by buying a R3 Society tea-towel or something! ;)

Regards - Lorraine


--- In @y..., "Julie Faries" <jfaries@b...>
wrote:
> It may be of interest to some of you to view an authenticated 16th
century painting of Richard III that is currently offered on ebay.
> The item number is 924992269.
>
> Julie
>
>
>

At 04:45 PM 11/28/02 -0000, you wrote:
>Thanks Julie - whilst it's not my fave R3 painting by any means, it
>was nice to see such a decent presentation of the thing. If only I
>had a private fortune...(sigh). I suppose Laura will now remind us
>we can all have a large but much cheaper pictorial representation of
>Richard by buying a R3 Society tea-towel or something! ;)
>

I don't do tea-towels (*grin*).

I didn't get over to see which representation of R3 is being offered on
eBay or whatever. But one can, or could at one time, buy a poster of the
NPG portrait -- same size, I think. Also very nice 5" x 8" notecards and 4"
x 6" postcards.

I myself turned the NPG portrait into desktop wallpaper once, but found the
result, ummm, overwhelming.

--
Laura Blanchard
lblancha@... (Philadelphia Area Consortium of Special
Collections Libraries
lblanchard@... (all other mail)
Home office: 215-985-1445 voice, -1446 fax
http://pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha

hi Laura

Me:< I suppose Laura will now remind us
we can all have a large but much cheaper pictorial representation of
Richard by buying a R3 Society tea-towel or something! ;)>

You: I don't do tea-towels (*grin*).

Plus the interesting stuff about R3 posters etc. which I knew you'd
know about <g> - thanks.

I've not had the R3 painting up as wallpaper, but I use it to
illustrate my talks and it *always* gets a favourable response!
I use one of my own shots of Sheriff Hutton as my desktop, taken
from inside one of the two more complete rooms (can't recall if it
was the guard room or the dungeon now), looking out across to
one of the towers. Lovely. Sheriff Hutton always reminds me of the
industry of the council of the North - and the shot is supposed to
motivate this northern lass to similar levels of industry! ;)

Lorraine

At 04:44 PM 12/5/02 -0000, Lorraine wrote:

>
>I've not had the R3 painting up as wallpaper, but I use it to
>illustrate my talks and it *always* gets a favourable response!
>I use one of my own shots of Sheriff Hutton as my desktop, taken
>from inside one of the two more complete rooms (can't recall if it
>was the guard room or the dungeon now), looking out across to
>one of the towers. Lovely. Sheriff Hutton always reminds me of the
>industry of the council of the North - and the shot is supposed to
>motivate this northern lass to similar levels of industry! ;)
>

I collected some lovely large images taken from the top of one of the
towers during the rehab -- want to swap?

--
Laura Blanchard
lblancha@... (Philadelphia Area Consortium of Special
Collections Libraries
lblanchard@... (all other mail)
Home office: 215-985-1445 voice, -1446 fax
http://pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha

Huh? Hey, I'm half Yorkshire/ Scotch-Irish myself! I
don't have a single ancestor who looked like that.
Acted it occasionally, though usually in more
straightforward ways (and until now I never saw a
thing admirable about it).

That face always brings to mind the image of Richard
telling young Prince Edward that the people who had
raised him had killed his father by their bad morals.
Not, you understand, that I think for one minute he
was intentionally cruel. Nor am I at this point
inclined to think he killed the princes - though the
picture is only too consistent with that of a man who
could have lost control of the situation badly enough
for Buckingham to have done it and then come to
believe it would be best to tell noone what had
happened, in fact that portrait is one of the best
pieces of evidence for that theory I've seen. Richard
BELIEVED what he told the boy, and it never occurred
to him not to "educate" the child! In fact I think he
firmly thought he'd have neglected his moral duties if
he hadn't. Just Richard's definition of being nice.


Sorry, folks, I just don't see the appeal in that
face.

Dora



> I've not had the R3 painting up as wallpaper, but I
> use it to
> illustrate my talks and it *always* gets a
> favourable response!
> I use one of my own shots of Sheriff Hutton as my
> desktop, taken
> from inside one of the two more complete rooms
> (can't recall if it
> was the guard room or the dungeon now), looking out
> across to
> one of the towers. Lovely. Sheriff Hutton always
> reminds me of the
> industry of the council of the North - and the shot
> is supposed to
> motivate this northern lass to similar levels of
> industry! ;)
>
> Lorraine
>
>
>
>
>
>


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--- In @y..., Dora Smith <tiggernut24@y...>
wrote:
> Huh? Hey, I'm half Yorkshire/ Scotch-Irish myself! I
> don't have a single ancestor who looked like that.
> Acted it occasionally, though usually in more
> straightforward ways (and until now I never saw a
> thing admirable about it).
>
> That face always brings to mind the image of Richard
> telling young Prince Edward that the people who had
> raised him had killed his father by their bad morals.
> Not, you understand, that I think for one minute he
> was intentionally cruel. Nor am I at this point
> inclined to think he killed the princes - though the
> picture is only too consistent with that of a man who
> could have lost control of the situation badly enough
> for Buckingham to have done it and then come to
> believe it would be best to tell noone what had
> happened, in fact that portrait is one of the best
> pieces of evidence for that theory I've seen. Richard
> BELIEVED what he told the boy, and it never occurred
> to him not to "educate" the child! In fact I think he
> firmly thought he'd have neglected his moral duties if
> he hadn't. Just Richard's definition of being nice.
>
>
> Sorry, folks, I just don't see the appeal in that
> face.
>
> Dora
>
>
>
> > I've not had the R3 painting up as wallpaper, but I
> > use it to
> > illustrate my talks and it *always* gets a
> > favourable response!
> > I use one of my own shots of Sheriff Hutton as my
> > desktop, taken
> > from inside one of the two more complete rooms
> > (can't recall if it
> > was the guard room or the dungeon now), looking out
> > across to
> > one of the towers. Lovely. Sheriff Hutton always
> > reminds me of the
> > industry of the council of the North - and the shot
> > is supposed to
> > motivate this northern lass to similar levels of
> > industry! ;)
> >
> > Lorraine
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com

Sorry I believe I sent an empty message last time, but in any case
the intended contribution was written before lunch and was on
reflection perhaps rather cranky. I'm feeling much more mellow now
<g>...

Laura and I were discussing the rather better known - and arguably
better looking - portrait that hangs in London's National Portrait
Gallery, earlier, not the EBay one, Dora.

The NPG example certainly does get a favourable response at my R3
talks. However, I also show slides of other known portraits of
Richard, similar to the EBay painting. The response is inevitably
favourable - maybe my audiences expect an alleged 'villain' like R3
(as portrayed by Shakespeare) to be misshapen and really ugly?

Whilst I haven't a clue if R3 was good looking or not, and to be
honest it's not really been a particular interest one way or another
for me, it *is* interesting how folk respond to images, favourably
or otherwise.

Those medieval painters could be powerful propagandists!

I can't say I'd cite a painting as evidence for anything except for
artistic licence myself, Dora, but funnily enough Josephine Tey had
her Insp Grant character using exactly that device with the NPG
portrait to plead Richard's innocence in her novel 'Daughter of
Time'!

Lorraine

Dora <tiggernut24@y...> wrote:
> > Huh? Hey, I'm half Yorkshire/ Scotch-Irish myself! I
> > don't have a single ancestor who looked like that.
> > Acted it occasionally, though usually in more
> > straightforward ways (and until now I never saw a
> > thing admirable about it).
> >
> > That face always brings to mind the image of Richard
> > telling young Prince Edward that the people who had
> > raised him had killed his father by their bad morals.
> > Not, you understand, that I think for one minute he
> > was intentionally cruel. Nor am I at this point
> > inclined to think he killed the princes - though the
> > picture is only too consistent with that of a man who
> > could have lost control of the situation badly enough
> > for Buckingham to have done it and then come to
> > believe it would be best to tell noone what had
> > happened, in fact that portrait is one of the best
> > pieces of evidence for that theory I've seen. Richard
> > BELIEVED what he told the boy, and it never occurred
> > to him not to "educate" the child! In fact I think he
> > firmly thought he'd have neglected his moral duties if
> > he hadn't. Just Richard's definition of being nice.
> >
> >
> > Sorry, folks, I just don't see the appeal in that
> > face.
> >
> > Dora

At 02:53 PM 12/6/02 -0000, Lorraine wrote:

>
>The NPG example certainly does get a favourable response at my R3
>talks. However, I also show slides of other known portraits of
>Richard, similar to the EBay painting. The response is inevitably
>favourable - maybe my audiences expect an alleged 'villain' like R3
>(as portrayed by Shakespeare) to be misshapen and really ugly?
>

Something more along the lines of the portrait of Henry VII, perhaps?

Larissa Taylor, a medievalist who now teaches at Colby College in Maine,
used to teach at an all female college. She used to show the two portraits
side-by-side and have her students answer this compound question:

"Which one of these guys would you most like to marry? Divorce? Have as
your lawyer or your judge? Be in a dark alley with? Go to a cocktail party
with?"

For the full impact, see http://www.r3.org/learn/poor_richard/compare1.html

--
Laura Blanchard
lblancha@... (Philadelphia Area Consortium of Special
Collections Libraries
lblanchard@... (all other mail)
Home office: 215-985-1445 voice, -1446 fax
http://pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha

> "Which one of these guys would you most like to marry? Divorce?
Have as
> your lawyer or your judge? Be in a dark alley with? Go to a
cocktail party
> with?"
>
> For the full impact, see
http://www.r3.org/learn/poor_richard/compare1.html
>
> --
>


I checked it out. Answer - neither of them. Particularly as lawyer,
judge, cocktail party or dark alley. Well, the one on the left
would PROBABLY be safer in a dark alley. But I wouldn't want him at
my church! Can't see either of them getting past the third date,
much less to divorce. And it's been years since a one on the left
type reached the third date stage.

That guy, he dated my housemate, and she said he'd raped her, and I
came to half believe it! We never spoke again after our first date;
he insisted on driving the toy car because he WOULD not be in a car
with a woman driving! He was an unemployed historian, and we had an
interesting discussion about how to do historical writing once.

I think most people would instinctively expect the guy on the right
to rape thirteen year old girls, and one needs experience to know the
face on the left is only slightly less dangerous. But I've never
known someone with a face like that to prove to be someone I could
trust very far. Unless I wanted to make a bet that he'd make any
particular ethical decision on very nervous and snobbish criteria
devoid of all humanity. Come to think of it, I had a computer
science teacher with a face like that... Certainly this is not the
face with someone with the ability to be a king.

Ugh!

Dora

Hey, folks, I"m still looking for the url of that portrait at eBay.
I can't find it here in the list archives, either, though I find alot
of discussion about it! I even tried looking at the postings about
other topics just prior to December 1 when the first posting "re:
Dick's portrait" shows up. That posting discussed the portrait but
was not the posting that contained the url to the portrait.

The people on the blacksheep list are wondering why I didn't post it!

Thanks,

Dora

-Hello,

I know a man who looks like the man on the left - to me, not at all
an unpleasant face, more of a worrier, quite a nice face, actually -
anyway, the man I know who looks like Richard Third's National
Portrait Gallery painting has been doing humanitarian work in South
Africa for the past decade or so, a truly great man, also a worrier.

The man on the right looks like a miserable little sod.

sincerely,
Jay.


-- In , "Dora Smith
<tiggernut24@y...>" <tiggernut24@y...> wrote:
> > "Which one of these guys would you most like to marry? Divorce?
> Have as
> > your lawyer or your judge? Be in a dark alley with? Go to a
> cocktail party
> > with?"
> >
> > For the full impact, see
> http://www.r3.org/learn/poor_richard/compare1.html
> >
> > --
> >
>
>
> I checked it out. Answer - neither of them. Particularly as
lawyer,
> judge, cocktail party or dark alley. Well, the one on the left
> would PROBABLY be safer in a dark alley. But I wouldn't want him
at
> my church! Can't see either of them getting past the third date,
> much less to divorce. And it's been years since a one on the left
> type reached the third date stage.
>
> That guy, he dated my housemate, and she said he'd raped her, and I
> came to half believe it! We never spoke again after our first
date;
> he insisted on driving the toy car because he WOULD not be in a car
> with a woman driving! He was an unemployed historian, and we had
an
> interesting discussion about how to do historical writing once.
>
> I think most people would instinctively expect the guy on the right
> to rape thirteen year old girls, and one needs experience to know
the
> face on the left is only slightly less dangerous. But I've never
> known someone with a face like that to prove to be someone I could
> trust very far. Unless I wanted to make a bet that he'd make any
> particular ethical decision on very nervous and snobbish criteria
> devoid of all humanity. Come to think of it, I had a computer
> science teacher with a face like that... Certainly this is not
the
> face with someone with the ability to be a king.
>
> Ugh!
>
> Dora

At 10:29 AM 12/8/02 -0000, you wrote:
>-Hello,
>
>I know a man who looks like the man on the left - to me, not at all
>an unpleasant face, more of a worrier, quite a nice face, actually -
>anyway, the man I know who looks like Richard Third's National
>Portrait Gallery painting has been doing humanitarian work in South
>Africa for the past decade or so, a truly great man, also a worrier.
>
>The man on the right looks like a miserable little sod.
>

I hadn't realized I was going to set off this sort of a conversation when I
brought up Larissa Taylor's class, but I suppose it doesn't matter. We
can't tell much from the National Portrait Gallery portrait of Richard III,
since it has been dated, if memory serves, to about a century after his death.

I should probably emphasize that Dr. Taylor was using Richard III's case in
a *writing* class, which may explain her approach. It is precisely the sort
of exercise likely to engage the attention of a group of young women (given
our acculturation etc and pace any feminists who are reading this).

The thing that puzzles me, though, is the NPG portrait of Henry VII. Do you
suppose he actually had a squint in one eye, or was the artist singularly
inept? (And did the artist get paid for this job at all, given Henry's
well-known parsimoniousness and the remarkably unappetizing results?)



--
Laura Blanchard
lblancha@... (Philadelphia Area Consortium of Special
Collections Libraries
lblanchard@... (all other mail)
Home office: 215-985-1445 voice, -1446 fax
http://pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha

>
> I can't say I'd cite a painting as evidence for
> anything except for
> artistic licence myself, Dora, but funnily enough
> Josephine Tey had
> her Insp Grant character using exactly that device
> with the NPG
> portrait to plead Richard's innocence in her novel
> 'Daughter of
> Time'!
>
> Lorraine
>


Yeah, I noticed that. I am genuinely curious how so
many people could see this face as that of a judge.
I asked my mother, who has my sharp intuitive sense of
faces, who had nothing to say, and I asked my
housemate, but her father just participated in some
community group rendition of Shakespeare's Richard
III, and my housemate just shudders and insists that
Richard was a monster. NOT a nice man. When my
housemate gets something stuck in her head noone can
unglue it. But I just started working for a woman who
is a businesswoman, who began making and selling
crafts to support herself and her children, and
probably is a good judge of character, I'll ask her!


I am talking about the portrait in the British Museum
- though the Italian one is better yet!

Only clue I can come up with is there are quite alot
of faces like that in high Episcopal and Anglican
churches! And that actor who played Prince Charles in
one of the movies about Princess Diana portrayed that
portrait's clone! He was back in the recent movie
about Prince William, though he'd grown up a bit. I
haven't met any who were judges yet... Often just
dysfunctional junior ministers, deacons and organists,
and church staff, and librarians, and state
bureacrats, a few teachers and college professors,
though not by any means more than a few, and a couple
of state and federal legislators, and that sort of
thing.

There are a few at my church. We don't get along, and
I've never known anyone I DID get along with who did.
At the Gay Community Center in Albany, NY, we used to
joke about people like that! The gay men, I mean...
they were a good, straightforward bunch of people, but
most of the lesbians, who you would really more expect
to have the man in that portrait for lunch, hung out
somewhere else. And discuss installing a pipe organ
in the attic meeting room to attract them, and their
money... because that is what attracts them! If you
couple it with lace gowns, angels, and graphic
references to Christ's suffering, anyhow.

We have an assistant minister with something of the
personality on that face... and, being relatively
knew, when the minister left, I asked people why this
minister didn't apply for the job. They burst out
laughing. "He couldn't handle a church!"

Somewhere on the web, I'll have to find it again and
download it, is a printout of Richard's favorite hymn,
and favorite psalm, and favorite prayer. I have
learned to pay close attention to whatever my
ancestors left behind of their religious lives because
religious faith and ritual reveals the heart of
anyone's emotionality, and it was central to my
ancestors' lives. The man was neurotic by medieval
standards - though by 1483 some of my plainer
Protestant direct line ancestors were already
radically Protestant, (yup, I know Luther and Calvin
didn't hatch until 50 years later, my people were
ahead of their time and actually part of a large
movement) driven around Europe in circles and living
in Flanders.

"Loyalty is" my whatever is a line from his favorite
hymn. There are WAY too many angels and vivid
descriptions of Christ's suffering for mental health.

Dora

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>
> I can't say I'd cite a painting as evidence for
> anything except for
> artistic licence myself, Dora, but funnily enough
> Josephine Tey had
> her Insp Grant character using exactly that device
> with the NPG
> portrait to plead Richard's innocence in her novel
> 'Daughter of
> Time'!
>
> Lorraine
>


Yeah, I noticed that. I am genuinely curious how so
many people could see this face as that of a judge.
I asked my mother, who has my sharp intuitive sense of
faces, who had nothing to say, and I asked my
housemate, but her father just participated in some
community group rendition of Shakespeare's Richard
III, and my housemate just shudders and insists that
Richard was a monster. NOT a nice man. When my
housemate gets something stuck in her head noone can
unglue it. But I just started working for a woman who
is a businesswoman, who began making and selling
crafts to support herself and her children, and
probably is a good judge of character, I'll ask her!


I am talking about the portrait in the British Museum
- though the Italian one is better yet!

Only clue I can come up with is there are quite alot
of faces like that in high Episcopal and Anglican
churches! And that actor who played Prince Charles in
one of the movies about Princess Diana portrayed that
portrait's clone! He was back in the recent movie
about Prince William, though he'd grown up a bit. I
haven't met any who were judges yet... Often just
dysfunctional junior ministers, deacons and organists,
and church staff, and librarians, and state
bureacrats, a few teachers and college professors,
though not by any means more than a few, and a couple
of state and federal legislators, and that sort of
thing.

There are a few at my church. We don't get along, and
I've never known anyone I DID get along with who did.
At the Gay Community Center in Albany, NY, we used to
joke about people like that! The gay men, I mean...
they were a good, straightforward bunch of people, but
most of the lesbians, who you would really more expect
to have the man in that portrait for lunch, hung out
somewhere else. And discuss installing a pipe organ
in the attic meeting room to attract them, and their
money... because that is what attracts them! If you
couple it with lace gowns, angels, and graphic
references to Christ's suffering, anyhow.

We have an assistant minister with something of the
personality on that face... and, being relatively
knew, when the minister left, I asked people why this
minister didn't apply for the job. They burst out
laughing. "He couldn't handle a church!"

Somewhere on the web, I'll have to find it again and
download it, is a printout of Richard's favorite hymn,
and favorite psalm, and favorite prayer. I have
learned to pay close attention to whatever my
ancestors left behind of their religious lives because
religious faith and ritual reveals the heart of
anyone's emotionality, and it was central to my
ancestors' lives. The man was neurotic by medieval
standards - though by 1483 some of my plainer
Protestant direct line ancestors were already
radically Protestant, (yup, I know Luther and Calvin
didn't hatch until 50 years later, my people were
ahead of their time and actually part of a large
movement) driven around Europe in circles and living
in Flanders.

"Loyalty is" my whatever is a line from his favorite
hymn. There are WAY too many angels and vivid
descriptions of Christ's suffering for mental health.

Dora

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I don't suppose you could post his picture? I'm open
to being convinced! But I have to see it. Atleast
maybe I'll figure out what on earth people see in that
face. Or else I'd learn more about where the people
on this list are coming from when they evaluate
Richard III.

Also, what is this individual's name? If he is so
well known, I'd like to find out more about him. I
might even find a picture of him somewhere.

I have to express doubt - I haven't, to be honest,
ever seen a person of the type that that face is who
didn't have a following of similarly minded people -
like your typical courtier sort, and the Duke of
Buckingham. People with that face are, in my
experience, master politicians who live as much for
and often more for political concerns as overblown and
very distorted ethical concerns. They get along well
with those they are able to impress. All I know about
the people on this list is they have alot of interest
in a late medieval English king! I've known ALOT of
people like that face who could produce whole throngs
of people in their chosen fields who admired and
respected them. And a body of other people who saw
right through them.

Pictures of my first cousin Steven, who I met only
once when I was twelve, are clearly of the worrier he
appeared to be when I met him, and likely a not very
strong person, but not a trace of the neuroticism,
snobbery, and Emperor Palatine of Star Wars or the mad
grand duke of the movie Young Catherine, that are in
the face in the portrait. You can't describe what is
truly frightening about that face, but if you've ever
seen it, you don't forget it - kind of like the time I
lit up a discarded crack cocaine joint and took two
deep whiffs to find out what the stuff smelled like,
because I correctly suspected a housemate was using
it. I couldn't describe it to save myself, and indeed
that is why I took the second whiff. I didn't believe
I'd mastered what it smelled like and could recognize
it if I smelled it again. But if I smell it, I'm on
the other side of the room with my heart racing and my
brain feeling absolutely black, all over again. Henry
VII's face looks a less creepy kind of evil - though
not by much.

Dora

--- "jayshane7 <jenniferb@...>"
<jenniferb@...> wrote:
> -Hello,
>
> I know a man who looks like the man on the left - to
> me, not at all
> an unpleasant face, more of a worrier, quite a nice
> face, actually -
> anyway, the man I know who looks like Richard
> Third's National
> Portrait Gallery painting has been doing
> humanitarian work in South
> Africa for the past decade or so, a truly great man,
> also a worrier.
>
> The man on the right looks like a miserable little
> sod.
>
> sincerely,
> Jay.
>
>

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>
> The thing that puzzles me, though, is the NPG
> portrait of Henry VII. Do you
> suppose he actually had a squint in one eye, or was
> the artist singularly
> inept? (And did the artist get paid for this job at
> all, given Henry's
> well-known parsimoniousness and the remarkably
> unappetizing results?)
>
>
>
> --
> Laura Blanchard
> lblancha@... (Philadelphia Area
> Consortium of Special
> Collections Libraries
> lblanchard@... (all other mail)
> Home office: 215-985-1445 voice, -1446 fax
> http://pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha
>
>

If I noticed the squint, it isn't what is bothering
me. The face has a pasty, sick both physically and
mentally, neurotic, snobbish look to it, and there is
something very wrong with the person who served as its
subject. It has some things in common with those
portraits of medieval Italian aristocrats with
syphilis! Their faces show as much about how they got
syphilis as how sick and neurologically ill they are.


In fact, it is hard to think the portrait is not
indeed of Richard III, since if an artist wanted to
portray him and used someone else to pose for the
painting, he'd have picked a healthier and more
attractive looking subject.

And I find it overwhelmingly likely that a Tudor
propagandist would have portrayed Richard as unfit to
rule in more vivid appearing and less commonplace
ways.

Dora



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Laura & Dora

I find myself increasingly confused by this thread!

For anyone else as baffled as me, Laura had said:

< The thing that puzzles me, though, is the NPG
> > portrait of Henry VII. Do you
> > suppose he actually had a squint in one eye, or was
> > the artist singularly
> > inept? >

to which Dora replied:

< If I noticed the squint, it isn't what is bothering
> me. The face has a pasty, sick both physically and
> mentally, neurotic, snobbish look to it, and there is
> something very wrong with the person who served as its
> subject. It has some things in common with those
> portraits of medieval Italian aristocrats with
> syphilis! Their faces show as much about how they got
> syphilis as how sick and neurologically ill they are.
>
>
> In fact, it is hard to think the portrait is not
> indeed of Richard III, since if an artist wanted to
> portray him and used someone else to pose for the
> painting, he'd have picked a healthier and more
> attractive looking subject.
>
> And I find it overwhelmingly likely that a Tudor
> propagandist would have portrayed Richard as unfit to
> rule in more vivid appearing and less commonplace
> ways. >

Laura mentioned Henry Tudor's squint on the NPG
portrait. This portrait is by Michael Sittow (spelling varies) and
it appears Dora's reply to Laura's squint obsevation seems to
be confusing H7 with R3 here.

Whatever else he looks like, Richard III definitely hasn't got a
squint on his NPG portrait!

BTW, 'NPG' is short for National Portrait Gallery.

I mention this because another post, possibly from Dora, makes
mention of the British Museum.

AFAIK we have not been discussing ANY portrait from the British
Museum and offhand I can't think of one of Richard in there. Copies
such as that of R3 on offer at EBay are in stately homes all
over the UK incidentally - virtually all of them painted LONG
AFTER Richard's death and seemingly copied from one main source that
itself could have been a copy. To clarify, that is, not a painting
painted while Richard was sat in front of the artist posing for it!

Dora suggests that the Tudor propagandists would have portrayed R3 as
unfit to rule in less commonplace ways.

Well, the surviving collection of R3 paintings were examined by art
historians prior to a major Exhibition at the NPG in the 1970s. They
were X-rayed and tree-ring dated to determine age, and to what extent
over-painting etc. served Tudor propagandists. One painting of R3
known as THE BROKEN SWORD showed *significant* alterations to the
arm, to highlight a supposed deformity. If memory serves the arm had
originally been painted as a normal arm, then a withered one, then
further deformation was added later on. On another portrait the eyes
and mouth had been altered to show thinner, crueler lips, and
narrower, crueler eyes. The dating methods are fairly reliable and
PROVED these took place in Tudor times. What they don't prove is
WHY, but I suppose most Ricardians could hazard a guess here.

So, all things considered, it is probably pointless to make a
judgement about RICHARD'S character (and/or his mental/physical
health) from pictures dating years after his death, many of which are
copies of copies to boot, when he might not have even been the
original sitter for these!

And I know I've gone on at length throughout this thread, but to be
honest, until either I or the other respondents sort out *which*
paintings we're talking about, *where* these are now and *who*
the subjects are meant to be, I think I should duck out of
this thread for my own sanity! ;)

Lorraine

At 03:50 PM 12/17/02 -0000, Lorraine Pickering wrote:

[big snip about portraits]

>
>And I know I've gone on at length throughout this thread, but to be
>honest, until either I or the other respondents sort out *which*
>paintings we're talking about, *where* these are now and *who*
>the subjects are meant to be, I think I should duck out of
>this thread for my own sanity! ;)
>

What she said.

For the record, I believe the only portraits I've spoken of in this thread
were: the eBay portrait, the NPG portraits of R3 and H7 on the r3.org
website, and, I think, the Society of Antiquaries round-top panel painting
(as opposed to the Society of Antiquaries "broken sword" painting, of which
the less said the better). I hope I've identified them all when writing
about them.

Discussions about any of these folks' characters based on the portraits is
useful only as a creative warmup for a writing class (which is what Larissa
Taylor was using them for). Otherwise, to my way of thinking, it's a parlor
game, like astrology, Tarot, ouija boards, and the location of the battle
of Bosworth (ducks and runs).

But the NPG Henry VII definitely has a squint.


--
Laura Blanchard
lblancha@... (Philadelphia Area Consortium of Special
Collections Libraries
lblanchard@... (all other mail)
Home office: 215-985-1445 voice, -1446 fax
http://pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha

Hi Laura

< For the record, I believe the only portraits I've spoken of in this
thread were: the eBay portrait, the NPG portraits of R3 and H7 on the
r3.org website, and, I think, the Society of Antiquaries round-top
panel painting>

Yes, I know and the confusion may well be all my own - it was just
when the British Museum was mentioned and the R3 and H7 portraits
seemed to becoming mixed up, it began to get a bit baffling for this
particular R3 supporter.

<(as opposed to the Society of Antiquaries "broken sword" painting,
of which the less said the better).>

I mentioned the 'Broken Sword' painting last post. Since I assume I
got my facts right on that example (art historian Pamela Tudor Craig
and others being my main reference on that, but admittedly from
articles from some time ago), I'm curious as to why you say 'of which
less said the better'? I find this painting rather interesting
propaganda-wise, though not particularly special artistically. Did
you mean the alterations have been proved to be a fake or something?
If so, then I'm clearly behind on that development. [However, I
believe the point I made earlier about the altered eyes and mouths
from Tudor times is still be correct unless I've missed a huge body
of work which touches on a particular interest of mine! :( ].

< Discussions about any of these folks' characters based on the
portraits is useful only as a creative warmup for a writing class
(which is what Larissa Taylor was using them for). >

Yes, I realised that was Larissa's original intention, and why you
posted the info. The Forum's discussion did rather grow away from
that.

<Otherwise, to my way of thinking, it's a parlor game>

I agree.

<But the NPG Henry VII definitely has a squint.>

I'll have to have another look at him <g>. By the by, I did rather
find it amusing that after everything I said last post, I was still
quick to say Richard in the NPG portrait *didn't* have a squint! ;)

Like it would have made a difference...

Lorraine

>
>
> --
> Laura Blanchard
> lblancha@p... (Philadelphia Area Consortium of Special
> Collections Libraries
> lblanchard@r... (all other mail)
> Home office: 215-985-1445 voice, -1446 fax
> http://pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha

Jay:

I'd still like to know who this man is.

Dora

--- "jayshane7 <jenniferb@...>"
<jenniferb@...> wrote:
> -Hello,
>
> I know a man who looks like the man on the left - to
> me, not at all
> an unpleasant face, more of a worrier, quite a nice
> face, actually -
> anyway, the man I know who looks like Richard
> Third's National
> Portrait Gallery painting has been doing
> humanitarian work in South
> Africa for the past decade or so, a truly great man,
> also a worrier.
>
> The man on the right looks like a miserable little
> sod.
>
> sincerely,
> Jay.
>

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